Tonight - Death System Overhaul

[GodBeastX]

So essentially, its like a semi Perma'death situation if you die alone somewhere or in a place that no one really knows about?

So literally it could be hours, days, or weeks to get out of the Fugue if:

1. Nobody likes your character enough to spend the cash to rez them.

2. You don't metagame and tell people/friends/strangers where your corpse is via OOc tells.

3. Your an evil character who gets pvp'd no subdual mode because "Your EVIL!!!"

4. Somebody kills you just to grief you or misunderstood the situation without subdualing w/ no DM around. ((Actually happened to me right as we speak))

Kind of scary isn't it? Almost like... being dead. ^_^

[Rhifox]

Of course, that also takes into account you not having a Signus. If you do have one, even the most out of the way death is hunky dory... just expensive.

[CharacterInWhite]

It does sound a little harsh against evil folks (considering my Monk has already named the community title of Frozen Lemon for being cold and sour ). Understandably, good characters will be able to get by, because, well, there's a lot of them. There's bound to be a person who will spend the money to raise you eventually, as long as your corpse is in a high traffic area.

Evil people, however, seem to get the short end of that stick. I've seen the "non subdual" PvP just because 'you're evil' as a previous poster said. I like my Monk, but her attitude is not one that attracts the best feelings from multitudes of people (despite this, she does in fact have a select few friends ).

[Machiavelli]

[quote=CharacterInWhite;38722]Understandably, good characters will be able to get by, because, well, there's a lot of them. There's bound to be a person who will spend the money to raise you eventually, as long as your corpse is in a high traffic area. [\quote]

I'm not sure that good characters are actually that high a proportion... And as long as they don't know you're evil then hopefuly they'll righteously drag your corpse off to the temple for resurrection

[Scavar]

It's all about being neutral and sighing at everything.

[Machiavelli]

It's all about being neutral and sighing at everything.

Try Chaotic Neutral, the greatest alignment of all! You can do basically whatever you want. Good, evil, whatever! CN and a strong concept is a barrel of laughs and no sighs involved.

But yeah, the death system. I like it! My only concern is that new characters might get shafted... maybe not, but time will tell!

[Infernal_Havok]

Can we make the Sub-dual only PVP a rule on the forum? We didn't have the sub-dual option when the PVP rules we're first made.

Only if the players involved/agree/consent to full PVP and set to hostile it is legit. I think this is fair..

I don't mind it if someone comes up and casts a harm spell on my lowbie for really no reason, but just to gank her ass to the Fugue.

But if I have to spend 10+ hours in the fugue or switch to an alt when the story was just developing with my main at the time, due to the above non-reason, it gets pretty frustrating.

[Machiavelli]

Only if the players involved/agree/consent to full PVP and set to hostile it is legit. I think this is fair..

Actually I'm pretty sure that OOC consent isn't required, if people behave in ways that would legitimately lead to you smiting them then as long as IC warning is given, then it's on (at least as I have always understood it). Using .subdual mode seems like something that'd make sense in alot of circumstances (a petty dispute turning to blows), but I've killed people with my current character who were going "Ooo, I follow Cyric and I delight in murder and want to kill stuff" (or words to that effect), on a couple of occasions. If people are doing this sort of thing, I'd say they've earned their token loss .

[edit] but; it sounds like you've got randomly ganked by people with Harm spells for no reason. The DMs tend to frown on that sort of thing, so I'd recommend if people kill you for no reason that you screenshot and ask for help.

[Venture]

Unless you actually havent seen them do anything evil. Exclamation of evil, though kinda dumb is'nt a crime anywhere.

[Infernal_Havok]

Actually I'm pretty sure that OOC consent isn't required, if people behave in ways that would legitimately lead to you smiting them then as long as IC warning is given, then it's on (at least as I have always understood it). Using .subdual mode seems like something that'd make sense in alot of circumstances (a petty dispute turning to blows), but I've killed people with my current character who were going "Ooo, I follow Cyric and I delight in murder and want to kill stuff" (or words to that effect), on a couple of occasions. If people are doing this sort of thing, I'd say they've earned their token loss .

[edit] but; it sounds like you've got randomly ganked by people with Harm spells for no reason. The DMs tend to frown on that sort of thing, so I'd recommend if people kill you for no reason that you screenshot and ask for help.

OOOhhhhooooo!! Mach, looks like you missed a thread that GBX so poignantly made about PVP ettiquette:

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2786

Please EVERYONE READ THE ABOVE LINK ON HOW TO PVP.. This will save alot alot alot grief later on. Also please remember sub dual mode is a viable option always. And even if you think another player deserves something... Step back and think if you were in their shoes for a minute and realize this player may not be able for hours to days. They are only trying to play their character not piss you of OOC.

Leave the "Deserving" death/perma'killing part to a DM and lets not be some OOC vigilante.

Ask first and switch to hostile... if the person says "no" then they have the option to change the situation and rp something else, if you flatten them or worse ... you get flattened, thats not a good rp'd solution.

[Machiavelli]

Unless you actually havent seen them do anything evil. Exclamation of evil, though kinda dumb is'nt a crime anywhere.

That was a shortened version of the conversation(s), and plenty of warning was given IC, along with warnings to leave. These encounters all took place away from civilisation anyways, and the character in question is a CG dwarf so not too concerned with the law. If someone is declaring themselves as a Cyricist and going on about the evil things they want to do, I figure after they have been warned two or three times IC to leave me alone or get killed that I'm pretty much entitled to smite them.

"Bugger off or I'll stick me axe in yer cranium." X3 is pretty clear...

My only point is that while I'd agree that .subdual is appropriate for alot of PvP, that I'd say that isn't always the case. These new death rules are to make people fear dying; part of that ought to be fear of what other PCs might do to them and not just monsters.

[Rhifox]

Unless you actually havent seen them do anything evil. Exclamation of evil, though kinda dumb is'nt a crime anywhere.

Yep. And the murder of someone just because 'they're evil' is still murder and should result in arrest of the murderer and the loss of paladin levels if the murderer was a paladin.


There's also the fact that evil is not nearly as dramatic as the stereotype says it is. A gruff person just looking out for themselves and leading a normal life might come up as neutral evil. People put too much emphasis on the extreme stereotypes for the alignments.

[Machiavelli]

OOOhhhhooooo!! Mach, looks like you missed a thread that GBX so poignantly made about PVP ettiquette:

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2786

Please EVERYONE READ THE ABOVE LINK ON HOW TO PVP.. This will save alot alot alot grief later on. Also please remember sub dual mode is a viable option always. And even if you think another player deserves something... Step back and think if you were in their shoes for a minute and realize this player may not be able for hours to days. They are only trying to play their character not piss you of OOC.

Leave the "Deserving" death/perma'killing part to a DM and lets not be some OOC vigilante.

Ask first and switch to hostile... if the person says "no" then they have the option to change the situation and rp something else, if you flatten them or worse ... you get flattened, thats not a good rp'd solution.

I'm fully aware of the switch to hostile part (which is an OOC action), and always do so when there's more RP to be done before a fight to give people an OOC nudge. But the chance for people to back down is an IC thing (if you examine what GBX says in that thread), not an OOC thing. I have always given people that (though not always been accorded the same courtesy to be sure). I've never threatened, switched to hostile, then attacked. But, if everything plays out as per those rules then I'd say that there are some circumstances where people shouldn't need to use subdual as a default. However, this is of course up to the DMs as to whether they want to make changes under the new rules.

[Infernal_Havok]

That might be true but the rules do not say you can do that. So its best to follow the rules eh?

Once again PLEASE READ:

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2786

[Machiavelli]

There's also the fact that evil is not nearly as dramatic as the stereotype says it is. A gruff person just looking out for themselves and leading a normal life might come up as neutral evil. People put too much emphasis on the extreme stereotypes for the alignments.

I didn't kill them because they were evil, I killed them because they were Chaotic-stupid-evil. Surely you know the type Rhifox. People declaring "I serve Talos!" then throwing about a lightening bolt and going on about the storm lord. As far as I'm concerned with my current character, they get a couple of warnings then that's it. If people behave like morons, I can't see why they shouldn't be penalised. Hopefully they might be a bit more fearful of death with the token system and not do this sort of thing. It's not common, but it does happen on occasion.