Update Released

[The Almight Red]

Even if it's single target, I'd like to once again point out it'd be the most powerful insta-death spell available.

In the hands of clerics. Considering all the lovely Cleric/Favored Soul PrCs entered on this server, am I the only one that gets the feeling that they want people playing munchkin warmachines?

Prove me wrong, and get rid of this spell, or turn Death Ward back on. Or do something to significantly weaken it compared to Wail of the Banshee. Even single target vs. AoE makes very little difference when the latter can be auto-protected from with Death Ward.

I wonder who will be the first to figure it out and make a cleric with a DC 35 Implosion.

[Kajae]

Funny, Implosion doesn't seem a very Priestly 'spell.'

I mean, when you imagine getting smote by a high-level Cleric, I wouldn't think of being imploded as the result. Getting struck by a thunderbolt, banished to the nether realms, impaled on the blade of an Avatar, or stomped on by a giant foot: now those would be proper smitings.

[Kaizen]

I wonder who will be the first to figure it out and make a cleric with a DC 35 Implosion.

Too late, Clive already runs this level of DC.

GG Paladins, it was a nice change of scene, too bad it had to end so soon.

[Saulus]

Of course a high level good cleric could do the same thing to a group of vampires as well... And "The Almighty Red"... you need to calm down a bit.

[MadSeer]

In my opinion, I am a little wary of Implosion in this game getting around death ward. It is true that in real D&D, Implosion is not considered a death effect, and thus death ward does not stop it. The spell creates a destructive resonance in any corporeal target that causes them to collapses in on itself, like too much pressure being applied to something sinking under water. Anything with a structure can be effected, including constructs, noncorporeal undead, and the like. If it has a real body, it can be "crushed" in essence.

The reason I am wary is that in pnp, a spell of this magnitude of power only effects a single target, unlike our version which creates an small area of effect vortex that can knock out an entire group if it is standing close enough. The direct reading of the pnp spell says that it effects one target per round, for four rounds, and you cannot re-target someone who has already saved. This is significantly more balanced than an area of effect Implosion, plus subsequent rounds of Implosion must be concentrated on, meaning the caster is essentially casting single target Implosion each round for four rounds, and nothing else.

I think if we are going to keep it as a kill spell that gets around death wards and destroys undead and constructs, we should at least make it a single target spell. A spell like this also only makes clerics stronger in the end. I know we love to try and make things as close to pnp as possible around here, but I think there are some things that don't mesh very well with nwn2 in those regards.

Just my thoughts and opinions.

EDIT: I didn't know about the automatic +3 to DC in the spell. In that case we should definitely tweak this spell some more, or things could get really out of hand with our high level clerics and favored souls. =/

This.
I can already see a dozen non caster against a cleric getting killed in a round because the only defence they have against an area death spell with such a DC has been made obsolete.

Implosion shouldn't be countered by Death Ward, but it shouldn't be an area of effect either. If it remains AoE then Death Ward should stop it. If it's changed, then it should kill the target with or without Death Ward/Deathless Frenzy/Vampirism or any other instant death immunity.

[The Almight Red]

Of course a high level good cleric could do the same thing to a group of vampires as well... And "The Almighty Red"... you need to calm down a bit.

The Almight Red. No Y.

Also, I think the moral proclivities of said clerics aren't exactly important, given the current contention. As I said, do you really believe clerics need more power? Do they need a spell that is, quite frankly, the most powerful insta-death spell in the game, now?

I don't think claiming 'NWN1' is fair game, concerning the various other changes made. Take, for example, Create Greater Undead. That could be a whole topic in and of itself, a spell that has 0 resemblance to PnP or NWN1, but instead has been beefed to ludicrous degrees on this server.

Now, I understand this is a spell that's been on the server for a bit of time, as is. So, I don't take any hopes or allusions to the notion that arguing for a change will provide much productivity.

However, considering that Implosion was recently changed, hopefully open and honest dialogue could perhaps steer that particular spell to a more agreeable measure. Namely, one that doesn't make clerics even more powerful than they already are.

Because that's wholly unnecessary. Entirely. There is simply no reason to give clerics the most powerful insta-death spell in the game.

I honestly just don't see how claiming NWN1 is 'more hardcore' justifies what is clearly only an action that results in beefing up classes that are the last that need beefing up. You don't always follow NWN1 in your decisions. You don't always follow PnP in your decisions. I think this is a good scenario where you shouldn't.

[Saulus]

Well comments worded so dramatically above don't make me very receptive to open discussion, in fact I think the tone of your comments are steering things in the other direction...

I will consider making implosion affect a single target only.

[The Almight Red]

Alright, I'll bullet (dash) point it instead.

- Why is NWN1 better in this instance, but not other instances (numerous other spells have some dramatic differences, many class abilities, etc. [some of such disregarding the 3.0 to 3.5e rules, no less])?

- Do you believe this change actually results in something beneficial, besides making clerics more powerful?

- Are you fine with the fact that clerics now have the most powerful instant kill spell?

Edit: I have been warned of being a Troll for this post. So, I am now genuinely baffled, and have no idea how to progress this discussion.

[Redjack]

Being a short range spell the caster is likely to kill himself along with his victim. Especially in the heat of combat. Misjudge your range and you are sucked into the vortex.

[The Almight Red]

I'd rather pose it as being possible to kill himself. Not necessarily likely. Especially when in melee, it's pretty easy to get used to dropping an AoE just outside your position with consistency, with just a bit of practice.

Not that it wouldn't be comical to see someone kill themselves with the spell.

[Zoberraz]

Well...

If you stop and seriously consider it, the only thing Deathward protected for the most part in regards to Implosion... were the people casting Deathward and sometimes rarely applying it on others. Other individuals were most of the time unprotected from Implosion. So, even so the 'power up' of Implosion does reinforce the cleric/favored soul, it also in turn leaves the caster-oriented classes that could cast deathward with less defense against Implosion.

...and Clive gets DC 35 from this spell? Seriously? Maia's best save, Reflex +18, has a good deal of trouble getting past some of the DC 35 traps in the Mossdale. To reach that, you'd need a base DC 10, +9 spell level, greater spell focus for +2... DC 21. So, for Clive to go higher, he'd need Wisdom 38; or 32 if Implosion somehow really gets a +3 bonus to DC. Throw in spellcasting prodigy for a required Wisdom of 30. (if you start with wisdom 18, pump it up five times, you get Wisdom 23 around level 20 so you'd also need something more to give you the +7 bonus... and that exceeds the capabilities of a Periapt of Wisdom +6).

It's not my intent to be disruptive. I just find the math behind this pretty scary (my level 20 ranger has a +14 fortitude save... so with DC 35, it's like, *snap fingers* immediate wipeout ).

[Kaizen]

you are forgetting that Vampirism adds a lot to your stat sheet.

[Zoberraz]

According to the SRD: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4.

Vampirism doesn't seem to be that great a contributor, though it does validate the use of a Periapt of Wisdom +6. But... wasn't Sundren a low-magic server even then?

*shudder*

[Machiavelli]

Does the change also encompass Shadow Shield?

[Redjack]

Although I am enjoying the attention.....
Clive wears a Periapt wisdom +2 like everyone else.