Caster vs Melee

[Saulus]

There are some good suggestions here but from what I can see everyone is all over the map and it seems to be more of an issue with how DnD balances rather than Sundren.

Sundren is low magic, and while it may have a high fantasy story that doesn't change the fact that level 9 spellcasters are not a dime a dozen and rare magical items are hard to acquire.

The most likely change that will come about is not things specifically catering to melee fighters to give them a benefit, as that would be attempting to balance DnD itself. The more likely change is dungeons in which the caster is more threatened because of the potential to lose buffs from dispelling... which can be avoided if properly prepared.

[MadSeer]

Sundren is low magic, and while it may have a high fantasy story that doesn't change the fact that level 9 spellcasters are not a dime a dozen and rare magical items are hard to acquire.

Since when ? Level 9 and over spellcasters are extremely common on Sundren. There's a bunch of high level spellcasting but only low level magic items.

Scaling magic items with your level isn't a problem with how DnD balances - because that's what happens in DnD. It does not in Sundren.

[Root]

Yep... At level 16 you get junk like Holy Avengers, +4 Flaming Battleaxes and other stuff dropping in your loot.

Low-magic implies that magic is extremely rare everywhere. What we have is a Mid-magic world (There are battlemages in the army and Clerics and minor magic shops in every city), a High-Magic population (Almost everyone has some degree of magic power, and there's a massive amount of magic-users to the point where it's no longer a suprise when people start throwing it around for fun), and Low-Magic equipment.

[Saulus]

Nevermind... not going to waste my breath. It's a high magic world.... that's right.

[MadSeer]

No one said it was high-magic. Root's got it right saying it's mid-magic. Low magic would mean seeing someone pull off a 7+ level spell to be pretty rare, on top of the low magic equipment. In Sundren's case, high level spells are pretty common. Not saying it's an issue or anything, but it's what it is.

[Sir Kharn]

Nevermind... not going to waste my breath. It's a high magic world.... that's right.

It IS a low magic world. I used to play in a server that has definitely got the high magic thing down and i got to say that Sundren doesnt even come close..
This thread is about caster vs melee. stay on topic.

[Root]

The topic is one of how to balance fighters with casters. Equipment is part of this. And the reason we've not got access to more powerful equipment is the theme of low-magic.

It's on-topic.

Compare the balance with Sigil: City of Doors. High magic world. First ignore the fact that everyone is lesbian tiefling cybering in public, and look at the gear. You can get the same stuff as the campaign, up to +5 with lots of elemental damage bonuses. Important spells like Death Ward can be cast off items for those who can't cast them themselves. Then look at the Class distribution. It's a lot more even. There's a fair number of Fighters going around. Weaponmasters are quite popular, as are sneaks. There's a number of wizards, warlocks, clerics and druids, but not a disproportionate amount.

However, if given the choice between, say, having to put up with cybering lesbian tieflings and hordes of casters, I choose the casters any day.

At least the casters don't give you nightmares of sweaty bearded men behind computers, emoting their tiefling whores. *shudders*

[MadSeer]

It IS a low magic world. I used to play in a server that has definitely got the high magic thing down and i got to say that Sundren doesnt even come close..
This thread is about caster vs melee. stay on topic.

As much as you want your apple to be a pear, no matter what you call it, it will stay an apple. I'm curious to know your definition of low/mid/high magic settings and how Sundren fits into Low.

Imo, low magic means between level 1 and 10 (level 10 being rare enough) with low magic weapons (+1 with maybe another enchantment max).

Common grounds in mid magic would be between level 10 and 15 with rare to no powerful magic items, but with access to stuff a bit more powerful than +3.

High magic ... common ground is nearing 20 and there's access to epic levels, along with +5 items and over.

Now Sundren sits somewhere between a High and Low magic setting. Balors are common, no one's gonna be surprised to see a dragon, Implosions and Bigby's Crushing hands can be found around every corner. I even hear that the new high level areas are gonna be in the Abyss. But you'll have a hard time getting something equivalent to a +2 weapon unless you're in the right Faction or find all the required stuff to enchant it, which makes them rare (and anything above very much so).

In terms of the setting itself and the magic characters have access to, Sundren easily sits in the High Magic worlds. In terms of items it sits in the low magic setting. And that creates a balance that's out of whack between the casters and non casters. It's not a Sundren-only problem. Every PW that gives players access to level 20, but keeps the items to +2/+3 faces that problem.

Now, you shouldn't have access to a +5, keen longsword with massive crits and +3d6 of elemental damage. But it's pretty standard stuff for a level 20 to have, say, a +4 Longsword with 1d4 sonic. On a server like Sundren, that's the kind of item that should be rare, but with a decent chance to be crafted for someone that puts his mind to it.

[Saulus]

You're entitled to your opinion but you're still wrong if you call Sundren anything else other than a low magic server. That is based on loot, and availability of items granting bonuses, and the difficulty involved in levelling.

Of course you can use whatever definitions you want but this is what we categorize, classify, and otherwise label Sundren as... and as long as you're here talking about it... that's what it is.

Now low fantasy I would say Sundren is not, we have a lot of extraordinary things.

Using your logic any server could become high magic without anyone developing anything on the module side, just purely from availability of people who can cast high level spells... which makes no sense.

[MadSeer]

So...it makes sense to call a place Low Magic where everything that is not related to loot is high magic ? That's like defining the entire server on what sort of items that kobold is gonna drop, while disregarding the power level a caster character can reach in about 2 months and a half on the server (which is near level 20 if not already there).

[Saulus]

So...it makes sense to call a place Low Magic where everything that is not related to loot is high magic ? That's like defining the entire server on what sort of items that kobold is gonna drop, while disregarding the power level a caster character can reach in about 2 months and a half on the server (which is near level 20 if not already there).

Well if you really want to argue, then lets argue.

1) Loot is low magic
2) Levelling is difficult (creating more of a low magic environment because its harder to get access to the high tier stuff)
3) ECL races are restricted
4) Epic spells basically don't exist

So according to you, the only way to have a low magic server is to.... restrict the caster level? The number of casters? The definition of low magic in a NWN2 PW setting mainly relates almost entirely to loot because that has the biggest effect on a character's abilities.

In fact, this thread wouldn't exist otherwise because people would have 'high magic' loot and the fighters wouldn't have to have spell envy.

Coming along 4 or 5 years after the fact and trying to rewrite the definition of the magic setting on the server is kind of... late?

[MadSeer]

Well if you really want to argue, then lets argue.

1) Loot is low magic
2) Levelling is difficult (creating more of a low magic environment because its harder to get access to the high tier stuff)
3) ECL races are restricted
4) Epic spells basically don't exist

So according to you, the only way to have a low magic server is to.... restrict the caster level? The number of casters? The definition of low magic in a NWN2 PW setting mainly relates almost entirely to loot because that has the biggest effect on a character's abilities.

In fact, this thread wouldn't exist otherwise because people would have 'high magic' loot and the fighters wouldn't have to have spell envy.

Coming along after 4 or 5 years and trying to rewrite the definition of the magic setting on the server is kind of... late?

(If you don't want to read all that, just skip to the two last paragraphs and you'll get the gist of it)

Restricting the Character level as a whole is pretty much how you achieve a low magic setting. And so is restricting the number of casters if you feel hardcore. Though I'm not saying you should do that because it's quite silly. But don't label something low magic when it's not.

The items; yes, they're low magic. But what has the biggest effect on character abilities are spells. You can't stack loot and equipment to reach the same level of uberness a caster can achieve (unless you go into the Epic stuff, but we're staying far from that). In the end, that means the level 20 caster will have access to High Magic equipment, while the non caster will have access to Low Magic equipment. That is what tips the balance way off on the side of the casters.

Levelling never gave me the feel of low magic. It doesn't take that long to reach higher levels. As for ECL races, that fits more into the fantasty level of the server. Epic spells are out, but you're not aiming for Epic magic setting.

Loot, in itself, should remain as it is. Because everyone will end up with a longsword +3 that he found in a chest in some random cave. But the crafting system should give access to items that scale with the character levels. So that, with some work, a character can get equipment fitting more or less his level without having to be handed out an item by a DM.

Follow me here for a minute; let's say all the players decide, right now, to drop their Fighters & Rogues to roll up Clerics & Eldritch Knights. You don't touch the loot, you don't touch the merchants...the same low magic items remain available via those means. Well each and every last one of the characters will end up with weapons and armors scaling with their level.
The Knights with Improved Mage Armor, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge and empowered Burning Sword (or whatever is the name of the wizard's equivalent). The Clerics will have Greater Magic Vestment (on armours and shields), Greater Magic Weapon, Blunt Weapon and Disruptive Weapon. Along with all the other buffs for saves, natural armor, etc.

The end result is the same Sundren, but with every character with +5 equipment. Now it would be pretty stupid to do that, but it just shows that the character level can and very much does change the magic level.

[BedlamX]

OK...so, based on loot only, Sundren is a low magic world. No problems at all with that.

But, the vast majority of people will see that you can not survive the world without a ton of caster friends or being a caster. Thus we have a bunch of level 16+ casters running around and a small handful of non-casters tagging along to get buffs and leech xp. When 80% or more of the server toons are casters, seems like a pretty high magic useage to me.

Personally, I don't care what anyone wants to label a server. Labels are subjective and really mean absolutely nothing to those who play on a world. The fact is, non-casters do get the shaft at anything above level 8 or so. Rogues might as well just wander around with a tank till level 8, then ditch that and find a caster to level 20 (unless you want to do like the vast majority of sneaks and take Shadowdancer for the HIPS...which the grey orc scent ability ruins anyway). No use arguing. No use complaining. It is just the way it is. You want to survive...make a caster or grab a buddy to make a caster to stay with your non-caster their entire career (if you can find anyone that has the exact play schedule you do and doesn't mind waiting/grinding to stay within a couple levels...harder than one might imagine).

Sorry...nothing else to say on this matter. Think it has all been said.

[Cornuto]

We could always do a vault-wipe and roll the server back to a level 15 cap.

*Crosses fingers*

[cdnspr]

Just gonna throw my two cents in here: I liked the earlier idea of limiting the amount of buffs on any given character. I think it would go a long way toward balancing casters&non-casters.