Caster vs Melee

[Saulus]

It's come to my attention that a lot of people seem to think that theres this big inbalance on Sundren specifically pertaining to Casters and Pure Melee Fighters.

For anyone who honestly believes in the above, I'd like to know why... is it specifically because of loot bonuses? Resting? Both?

As I mentioned in another thread, we are considering giving melee characters something like 'enhanced poisons'. Which would be far more effective, and provide different bonuses from the current poisons. (IE, an Anti-Magic poison that had a dispelling effect). These poisons would only be usable by characters without levels in arcane or divine spellcasting.

What are your thoughts on such a feature, and do you really think there is a problem right now? Sundren is meant to be semi-hardcore with some pnp roots. We don't have default perma-death, but this isn't a walk in the park either. And for what we are concerned, only obscene inbalances in gameplay for us warrant modifying a spell/feat/class etc.

[Anrilor]

There is supposed to be a big imbalance of the classes, DnD classes are not supposed to be equal on a 1 vs 1 level. its a group system, 3.5 was based on the classic 4 party group (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) other classes can be supplemented for those roles. each class is it's own specialist: stealth and spot, divine wards, attack and defensive arcane, and the big beefy sword wielder. how the group is supposed to work is the Cleric helps protect the group and does supplement melee damage. the rouge is out in front to disarm and dodge traps, and find the enemies and bring back the report for proper planning. the fighter should be the recipient of divine and arcane assistant to help him in melee prowess. the wizard is there for AoE effects and targeted damage against the tougher enemies, otherwise he just sits in the back keeping an eye out for the big baddies.

Over all, its the better balanced team, that works better together, that will win on a 4 vs 4.

the only levels that all classes are roughly equal is 6-10 which is why a few servers have implemented a e8 (only allows to level to 8) system. The casters don't have that many spells, however, the fighter ABs are not so out there that they walk over everything like they do at the earlier levels. However this for me kills character progression and you have to scrap any epic feeling quests because well, lets face it you can't stop a lich from summoning things without word of faith, and a lesser dispel isn't going to take out 10 of his powerful spells and your gonna run out of those before he blows you up with a fire ball. to scale back leveling scales back the epicness of the plots as well, and eventually you just get tired of it.

[JotunWarrior]

I've been thinking of how to respond to this, and I can't think of a way that doesn't make me sound like I'm whining, so I'll just make a little list that sounds like I'm whining.

-There's like five active high level pure fighters.
-Casters can buff themselves to pretty much replace pure fighters.
-Casters tend to be the focus of events.
- Fighter equipment/healing/potions are really expensive. Clerics get free healing, can buff their equipment to be better than the average fighter's.
- Why be a fighter when you can be a cleric?
-Most people see a fighter as a target for any of their will-save spells instead of a threat.
-Gotta love getting Blinding Spittled and beaten down by a bunch of level fives.

Most of these problems go away if you're in a group though. For example, when we were assaulting the Black Hand Citadel, Xaayne really shined, doing almost five times as much damage a hit as the various melee-casters. Of course if I were unbuffed and they were all self-buffed, I would have immediatly died while they slowly chipped away at stuff.

Also,having anti-magic weaponry more readily available would be awesome. I've been trying to get an adamantine greataxe so I would have a shot against some of the casters who always roll with premonition up, but apparently the plans are either nonexistant or only in the posession of the Black Hand.

Man, that was way more than I thought I typed.

[Saulus]

If they sit and buff for 5 minutes first, yes... but they also get lower HP too and their BaB isn't as high for long periods.

Blinding spittle is a side-issue. I just haven't modified that spell yet. It's going to be changed.

Also if Clerics don't follow their dogma they lose their ability to cast spells.

[Root]

There are a lot of spells which outright defeat or outdo the other classes. With the short time between resting, these can be used so often to be practically persistant. (At level 15, you can extend Round/Level spells to last three minutes. Three of them will almost last you between each rest.)

Divine Power, for instance. +6 Strength, AB goes up to Fighter-power, and you gain enough attacks to meet the pure fighters.

Add to this: Bulls Strength, Weapon of Impact, Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Might, Battletide, Divine , etc etc so on so forth.

These spells mean that up until and below level 12, these casters will have equal if not better-quality gear than even a well-equipped, rich fighter. Not that the Fighter is likely to be rich, considering how much he'll be spending on bandages, potions and other such stuff. And after level 12, it means their equipment is now superior to anything that will be found outside DM loot.

That's their offensive advantage. Now the defensive.

With their buff spells, they have far superior AC to Fighter-types. Whilst a Fighter might have a Ring of Deflection +3 if they're extremely lucky, rich, know crafters, and work for it, this has the same inbalance as with GMW and Magic Vestment. The Clerics can get this, and improve upon it.

Then you look at their saves. Greater Resistance and Conviction, Fort and Will as primaries (and even Reflex, too, if you're FS), PfE/G, and Spell Mantle and Spell Resistance make them virtually untouchable by spells that allow a save.

And immunities? They can grab heavy resistance to all elements for a minor price in terms of spellslots, and then get immunity later. Also, immunity to mind-affecting spells, paralysis and hold spells, ability drain, poison, and pretty much most things.

And that crit immunity is a big one. Tell me, what's a high level Rogue without Precision to do if a Cleric casts Living Undeath on themselves? Chip away at their HP with it's weak non-sneak attacks?

As counter arguments go, I see a few things.


1: A Cleric-Buffed Fighter is far, far superior to a Cleric.

Not exactly. There's a lot of self-only buffs that Clerics have. Divine Power, to name one. Battletide, for another. Divine Favour? Yeah, that too. Combine the three for two extra attacks to bring you to at least as many as a similar-level Fighter, +7 AB more than the Fighter (that's on top of Divine Power bringing you to his BAB), +4 damage, and you're comparable to if not better than said buffed fighter.

The fact that Divine Power is only round/level is irrelevant if you Extend it and use a few extra spellslots so that you can run on it constantly until you rest again.

2. An unprepared cleric is utterly pathetic.

Yes, but the difficulty in being prepared is hardly stellar. You have two options, walk around semi-buffed (not hard with Persist Spell, and your many minute/level spells that last very long at medium-high levels, especially extended)

A cleric can walk around immune to crits (and therefore any Sneak Attacking rogue), PfA'd, all of his gear and weaponary buffed to the best it gets (if not better) and... etc etc.

And if you don't like being buffed all the time?

You have a spell called Etherealness.

Add to this healing, spellcasting at comparable DC's to pure mages and spells that are generally as good barring a few OP Wizardy ones. Storms of Vengeance and Flame Strikes, and Hold spells you can use on any class with low Will (say, anything that isn't a caster, except a monk, but you can kick their arses easily. Sadly monks have Spell Resistance, a cool feature that's a signature of their class, and which of course you can outdo with a spell that's minute/level.)

Summary:

Better gear
Immunities
Awesome resistance to anything with a saving throw
Mantles
Spell Resistance
Better AC, Damage, AB
Spellcasting
Healing
Party support

I think that's enough ribbing on Divine Casters for now.


Wizards I have less beef with. My main beef for them comes with their gimpy no-save spells, or spells near-impossible to resist. Bigby's, for instance. A character needs 38 Str to have a 50% chance to resist that.

The only thing that can save you from it is a Spell Mantle, something only accessible by, you guessed it, other casters. Rogues can do okay here with a 600 GP spell mantle scroll, but it's only delaying the inevitable.

I tried playing on the Battle of the Builds module. I found that every non-caster build I made did comparably against the other melee builds, but every single build I made without caster levels died to the first spell cast by the wizard builds. Yes, they didn't fall over dead at the first one, but they might as well have.

Bigby's Forceful Hand. Fail that save and your wizard opponent has his caster level in rounds to pop you down with good old Missile Storms.

The rest of a Wizards spells generally need saves, or don't utterly disable their opponent. Fine with things like that, even if they're a tad bland.






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Oh Gods, that's a text wall. Yeah, basically, what's been said, but verbosely and with more ranting.

[Anrilor]

And if you don't like being buffed all the time?

You have a spell called Etherealness.

Knockdown... just knockdown, its all I have to say about that


also, higher level good spells cost gold to cast

that Etherealness spell? 150 a pop

you forget to slot it (if cleric) your screwed

[Fezzik]

I don't see a huge imbalance. Everyone has weakness and strengths, and are we talking about PvP, or just go out and smack the world here? If it's a little of both, you have to plan you attack on someone based on what you know about their abilities (perferably IC of course). Not everyone walks around with PvP loaded into their repertoire all the time just itching for a fight, most smart casters wouldn't be caught dead... ok, they probably would be dead, but that not here or there . Most of the time my casters walk around with "lets go kill the world" spells for some or all their strong buddies.

As for the Shear number of casters that maybe people see, how many pure non-caster classes are there? Very few. Even Rangers and Paladins get spells (some might not consider them casters, but hey). Yes, Rogues get more skill points, but they don't even have to be seen by their enemy if they don't want to... assuming they have bought the right stuff to stay hidden from the uber elf Druids (if you want to nerf someone, nerf those pointed eared treehuggers! ).

More people might play fighters and whatnot, if there was more of a fairer system of enchanting, mining (gem gathering) etc, but hey, you know what? As far as I can see since the new system went into effect, it's the player base that has caused the price of magic items and gems to skyrocket again, nothing else. There are not enough of either Enchanters, or miners (or woodcutters) for there to be much competition. This has been mitigated somewhat by the better gear found in faction stores (I hear people still go "They consider that good???") - yes, you were not here before to remember, but things now should be cheaper to make... if there was enough initial input into the system. So, if your fighter doesn't have enough stuff enchanted, maybe he should pick up a pick, or axe, and get to work!

Ps. Some melee's have the capacity to do 100+ points of damage 4 times a round at level 16... Fighter wins, caster looses.

[Root]

You'd be suprised about Knockdown.

The way NWN2 works, unless you're massively fast on the trigger and lucky with your initiative (both casters and fighters are likely to have similar Initiative), one spell will get off before you land the hit, if the caster starts casting before you start attacking.

And casters only need to get off a single spell to win.

The amount of times I've stood right in someones face and made the mistake of RPing instead of just slamming my Knockdown hotkey then killing them, and been repaid with my own death, is enough to make Knockdown seem hardly useful.

[MadSeer]

The only thing is that casters can just rest and fill up their entire spellbook pretty much anytime they want. That's the only thing making them so overpowered in comparison to non casters. They can just basically go around fully buffed and in Tenser's Transformation over and over, which ultimately makes them better at fighting than fighters. Mages and Clerics are meant to have a brief moment of awesomeness in their day, to take on a tough fight. Most of the rest is in the hands of the other classes.

As an example, at level 13 Raman, which is a Frenzied Berserker/Barbarian/Cleric, killed a 16th level vampire Blackguard. After that fight he didn't have any spells left, but then he just needs to rest and he could take on another. Then rest again and do it a third time, and a fourth, and so on. Normally, after killing that vampire Raman shouldn't be able to go take on another without breaking a sweat, and he should be "oh crap" if another showed up at that moment.

[Root]

Incidentally, bumping up rest time to, say, 30 seconds would be nice.

I'm tired of anyone who decides to pick a fight with me kneeling down to tie their shoelaces, and standing back up with a specific set of spells guaranteed to beat me.

If Resting took 30 seconds, I'd kick them in the teeth when they got out their magic book and started elaborately preparing.

[Ebannon]

There is supposed to be a big imbalance of the classes, DnD classes are not supposed to be equal on a 1 vs 1 level. its a group system, 3.5 was based on the classic 4 party group (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) other classes can be supplemented for those roles. each class is it's own specialist: stealth and spot, divine wards, attack and defensive arcane, and the big beefy sword wielder. how the group is supposed to work is the Cleric helps protect the group and does supplement melee damage. the rouge is out in front to disarm and dodge traps, and find the enemies and bring back the report for proper planning. the fighter should be the recipient of divine and arcane assistant to help him in melee prowess. the wizard is there for AoE effects and targeted damage against the tougher enemies, otherwise he just sits in the back keeping an eye out for the big baddies.

I'd like to focus more on PvE than PvP. In any dungeon in the module would you feel safer with a 4 person group consisting of either Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard or Cleric, Cleric, Cleric, Cleric? I'm pretty sure it's the latter.

Seems the only down-side of the class is that its so damn boring to play.

[roguethree]

Knockdown... just knockdown, its all I have to say about that
also, higher level good spells cost gold to cast
that Etherealness spell? 150 a pop
you forget to slot it (if cleric) your screwed

1)Yes, if the fighter is standing right next to the caster as combat begins, knockdown could work, provided that caster isn't already covered head to toe in extended, caster level/hr, and persistent buffs.
2)150 gold is two minutes in the Mossdale, which every cleric/favored soul/EK can wade into with ease. The gold cost for using high level spells is trivial when an hour in the Mossdale returns 1000% of your investment.
3)"Forgetting" to use a tool is no argument for balance.

A 20th level Favored Soul has base saves of 12/12/12, Haste ability, Energy Resistances, Weapon Focus/Spec, and DR 10/Cold Iron or Silver. The Favored Soul/Cleric can bring its AC to the mid-forties, its attack bonus to 40ish (dealing 30-40 a shot), give itself DR 10/Adamantine, Energy Immunities, Immunity to Sneak Attacks and Crits, Immunity to Death Magic, Immunity to Mind-Affecting, Immunity to Movement Affecting, True Seeing, Healing. It can nuke the ever-loving hell out of everything. If 20 level 20 fighters attack it, it can go ethereal, buff, cast Word of Faith, and proceed to win.

A 20th level Favored Soul/Cleric can walk into the Mossdale alone and come out with thousands of gold, no sweat.

A 20th level fighter typically has an attack bonus around 30, if it has a +2 sword. The 20th level fighter's AC will be around 32, assuming a +2 Tower Shield, +1 dodge boots, +2 deflection ring, and the fighter dodge bonus feats, 38 if he's using Improved Expertise. Of course, now he's swinging at a 22, instead of a thirty. Assuming the fighter is using his not-quite-survivable AC of 38, his 22/17/12/7 attacks are going to struggle against everything. Assuming this build, his damage is going to average around 17-20. Assuming a damage build, Mr. Fighter is Mr. Squishy and doesn't live long enough to see the fruits of his labor.

If this fighter walks into the Mossdale, he doesn't walk out.

Now, on to addressing this concern of balance:

Myself having an OnHit: Dispel DC:20 weapon, I can attest to its ineffectiveness. OnHit: Dispel makes the victim of the hit make a character level check against the DC of the weapon for each ward he or she has active. Say a fighter has an antimagic poison that makes his weapon just as effective at dispelling as a paladin's Holy Avenger, he's never going to dispel anything with a character level of 20 or greater. The 20th level caster would need to roll a -1 to lose buffs (they don't autofail on a 1 on this check, for some reason).

Balancing high magic characters on a low magic server is going to be impossible. If you want to limit casting, you have to enforce spell components or stricter spell component costs. Problem is it makes it difficult for the casters to fulfill a role as party buffer, meaning everyone loses. The way to make things more enjoyable for the melee types is to balance the areas for melee types. As it is, a 20th level paladin, fighter, rogue, monk, ranger, barbarian, bard, and swashbuckler could walk into the Mossdale, and they'd be in more danger and able to clear fewer areas than a single Favored Soul or Cleric.

[Root]

And you look goddamn stupid in a bubble.

[mojom]

My two cents:

There are lots of different playstyles and preferences, for example:

- those that want to make powerfull builds and show them off
- those that want to tell a story
- those that want to experience it all
- those that like to experiment with wacky concepts alike
- ...

These are just a few stereotypes and one creates and takes on a character fitting his/her style.

In my opinion the balance is broken when some of the styles (or even classes) become impossible to play due to power issues etc. On Sundren I have yet to experience such thing. Sure there are some issues but in general I do not feel pressed to take a certain route in order to enjoy my game.

To me, alot of the posts appear not to be a complaint about balance issues but more about the fact that others have it easier. Again, you can play any role that fits your needs. Want it a bit easier, roll a cleric. But, you don't have to play a caster to evolve. It's not the only viable option, you can as well play a fighter a make progress just fine.

Magic is supposed to be scary and powerfull and it would be more out of balance if every average Joe with a sword would stand a chance against a full buffed caster.

In the end both caster and fighter types are perfectly playable, even if some classes are "better" then others. I play a fighter type myself and have yet to meet a group where I feel completly obselete, if a caster present most of the time they are very glad to have a proper monkey to buff.

The dev team have been giving us players alot of candy lately and I personally feel this issue have been blown a bit out of proportion.

[AsuraKing]

Alright here's my quick and short responce.

Even though my main toons are both casters of some sort (Cruven's a cleric and Dav's a Shaman) I'm siding with the non-casters on this. Cruven, even if unbuffed, can easily defeat most pure fighter types. How? Simple, if unbuffed he merely Word of Faiths, then right after while the enemy is dazed for like 7 rounds, casts battletide, righteous might, recitation, and divine power and bam, the fighter type is dead...

In my opinion, there needs to be more higher level items for fighter types that dont really benefit caster types and make them cheaper so you dont need to farm (which most non-casters cant anyway) for an outrageous amount of gold so you can maybe, just maybe stand a chance.