Caster vs Melee

[Intrepid42]

( and when i say appears i mean it. i die at least once or twice a week)

I can vouch for this. Glyir has dragged Kharn back from the beyond a few times. In return, he blatantly copies Kharn's spell selection, which has dramatically increased his combat ability.

Gorm is apparently not especially keen for his company in Dwarfhome...

[roguethree]

Perhaps bringing more spells in line with PnP would help. For example, Death Ward is only supposed to:

The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.

And it's only supposed to last 1 min/level.

Death Ward in NWN2 is 1 Hour/level and does this:

Immunity to -

• Negative damage (100% immunity)
• Death effects
• Ability decrease effects
• Negative level effects

[Sir Kharn]

Gorm is apparently not especially keen for his company in Dwarfhome...

lmao he is sick of kharn visiting and drinking all his ale

[Lilene Jora]

In my experience, I really only dislike any spells with no conventional, or practical means of prevention. The usual suspects...word of faith and spittle, (only because blind completely prevents attack rather than concealment). The bigby line, etherealness (Maybe that should be as a level 7/9 version of sanctuary with commensurately higher DC for being a level 9 spell?).

The relative power of a few summon spells should be looked at. When was the last time you saw a summoned creature 9?

A few tweak to what certain spells prevent. Death ward probably shouldn't have the energy immunity negative, or the ability drain prevention. (It says it stops negative energy effects...but is a weapon that does 1 negative energy damage per hit a negative energy effect, for example?)

The persistent spells seem a little silly, I mean, so much for catching someone unprepared.

Rogues aren't useful on this server. The bonus loot apparently isn't compelling enough for people to want to bring them. No one makes a pureclass rogue. The traps and locks aren't impeding enough. Casters either soak up and heal the damage, or use carefully picked energy immunities to neutralize traps just as well if not better than a rogue.

Lastly, I think saves are too high...not from items...at least for me, I can't find more than a cloak of fortification and that's about it. Every casting slapping on conviction, night shield, superior resistance, and whatever else, starts to get ridiculous. When saves get so high, it makes casters feel forced to spam "I-win" spells to feel like they have a chance. If it were me, leave the meager few items in...cut almost every other source of save bonuses out, and let people's class, feat, and stat choices actually matter for determining their save statline. I think that would be a balance for and against casters - being vulnerable to a greater variety of effects, in the same way as opponents are...having to match the right spell to the right job, and being in trouble if caught unprepared. (wrong spells memorized at the moment for cleric/wizard, or not having them at all for spontaneous users.)

[Cornuto]

Not sure if those save bonus spells are actually supposed to stack like they do in NWN2.

[Lilene Jora]

Also, while I haven't tested it, some of the save spells that purport to only increase saves vs spells probably apply to some mundane effects that they shouldn't.

On a related note:
If I tested it, quivering palm would probably fail against someone with death ward, despite not being a magical death effect. In the same way, an immunity to mind SPELLS would probably prevent a stunning fist, for some reason.

[07paul87]

Yep, immunity to mind spells stop stunning fist, as well as assassin death attacks, just like death ward stops attribute damage from melee abilities (weakening/wounding/crippling strikes)

[roguethree]

As this discussion continues, I want to be clear that I don't want melee-types to suddenly get items that erase their weaknesses, like low will saves. I think the more appropriate change is to improve their strengths via custom feats and better equipment.

For example:

Distracting Blow
Range: Touch
Cooldown: 30 sec.

Must succeed at a touch attack. Target suffers 100% spell failure for 1 round.

Hurl Stone
Req. Feats: Knockdown, Improved Knockdown
Cooldown: 12 sec

Functions like Knockdown, except can be done at up to medium (long?) range.

Sunder
Req. Feats: Disarm, Improved Disarm
Cooldown: 6 sec

Successful attack deals no damage, applies a STR check v. DC: XX. If successful, target suffers from reduced AC equal to PC's STR Mod for a # of rounds equal to a PC's INT Mod. Effects from multiple sunders do not stack.

These are ideas that would make fighters both even more fun to play and uniquely viable in CvC and CvE settings. All of those should require attack bonuses of +X, as well.

[Seheren]

To agree with the post above, I also do not think fighters should be given items that erase all their weaknesses. What I do think, is that there should be more items that can help a little more then what is available, to be paired with custom feats. I dont think they need to be as powerful as a buffed cleric or anything like that, however, a mid level fighter shouldn't have to be a weak link in a party. I don't think that just powerful items, or just new feats should be used alone to try and balance, I think a little of both would be the best course of action.

[Lilene Jora]

Yeah, couldn't agree more with the above. We don't need to start an arms race here, especially with gear, and suddenly we're on a high-magic world. I think everyone's saves should be at more realistic levels so everyone has a weakness of some kind, it's just (or should be) part of playing any class.

[Dragor]

Unfortunatly this got started while I was away...So after spending a few minutes reading over the posts here's my take

I personally feel that the time it takes to remove/put on armor should be halved...but outside of that the resting script doesnt really make any difference...I know it wouldnt matter to me if Seb had to spend 60sec's resting as opposed to 10, a spellcaster doesnt rest in a spot where he can get attacked if he can help it.

Considering the fact that blindness is broken I think a save should be added to any blindness effect at least until such a time as blindness is fixed

Fixing or redoing the crafting system to the point where we actually have a completed one to work with (current one wasn't finished/has huge gaping holes in portions of it) would help on obtaining the items a fighter would need, but you have to realize the melee/caster hybrids that everyone seems to consider OP the most would want these items as well. In fact just adding the recipe for radiant essences somewhere in game would do wonders.

And the point I stress the hardest...add stuff to the current area's that make rogues and fighters more necissary (Traps of Greater Spell Breach, as MadSeer suggested, especially in an anti-magic area) and make more area's per lvl range.

Also I'd suggest putting a 100-150gp casting cost on Death Ward and a 50gp cost on Living Undeath, Death Ward is the single most powerfull defensive spell in the game...oh yeah and 50-100gp on shadow shield since it doesnt last as long

This should go a long way to make fighters and rogues feel more usefull

As for custom feats I'm ok with any feat that doesnt try to do something active...like Disarm. Any feat that does something active like that usually winds up buggy, including disarm for that matter.

And as a final point...as much trouble as a straight melee build has a straight rogue build has even more on this server simply for the lack of anything requiring rogue skills.

[Waverider10]

Remember that this is about all caster v all melee. Extra feats are a good idea, however, poor barbarians and rogues who don't get a fighter bonus feat every two levels. Barbarians I think are the most vulnerable class in some ways because they don't get the feats or armor to complete with fighters.

I'm not sure if its possible to code into NWN's framework but can something like spell components be added? Components would have to be gathered (requiring using components to adventure to get them), cost in fatigue if it used the alchemy skill, money, and a degree of rareness can be added to drops to limit high level spells from being used often.

Coupled with +secs to caster times/level that could be interesting.

[Dragor]

Everytime this issue comes up everyone seems to not understand that if you nerf spells your nerfing them for everyone...it is impossible to run the high level areas unbuffed for any amount of time to make it significantly worthwhile so by nerfing spellcasters you are nerfing the melee chars as well since they depend on someone buffing them.

[Root]

I personally say buff the weak rather than nerf the strong. Give fighters more easily available high-powered magic gear.

The only thing that's low-magic about Sundren right now is the gear.

[Dragor]

I personally say buff the weak rather than nerf the strong. Give fighters more easily available high-powered magic gear.

The only thing that's low-magic about Sundren right now is the gear.

If there is higher tier gear put in such as +4/5 weapons and/or +4/5 items with ability buffs and/or +4/5 items that up saves Gish builds and Cleric builds will benefit just as much if not more from them than straight melee builds.

A logical thing to add in would be something that gives high spell resistance but this would still benefit the casters just as much or more than the melees, even if it was tagged as fighter/rogue/barb/swash/monk only