Caster vs Melee

[Isenheart]

Having a caster myself I have to say I as well like the idea of limiting the amount of buffs, perhaps to 4 or 5 per character.

[Machiavelli]

We could always do a vault-wipe and roll the server back to a level 15 cap.

*Crosses fingers*

Things were simpler then, and Bigby's were as rare as Hen's teeth.

[Doubtful]

Vault wipe back to 15, make all spellcasting classes prcs.

[Philosopher]

In complete honesty, a cap of 15 would go a long ways to limiting magical power. Most of the big instant-win spells are 7th and higher. 15 would mean you'd get one or two of those big spells, but not six or more at 7th and 8th level spells, plus none of the 9th level silliness.

Don't agree with the limiting of spell casting to PrC's, and a vault wipe would be really really iffy.

But I could live with a cap limit of 15.

[07paul87]

We could always do a vault-wipe and roll the server back to a level 15 cap.

*Crosses fingers*

Do it! Pleasepleasepleaseplease do it! And permadeath! I love me some permadeath, but the only servers that I know of that do it are super-rigid and have a whopping playerbase of 5.

Anyways, I think it is pretty universally agreed that a fighter v. a caster at higher levels is one-sided, and that the only way to balance them (that doesn't involve a shit ton of scripting or a level cap) is equipment. Amirite? If so, what level of magic items would level the playing field? I'm not so convinced it's just straight up damage that would make it even, but probably more along the lines of saves/spell immunities.

[Philosopher]

The bottom line is that D&D isn't completely balanced, especially at the high levels.

In D&D, there exists a label known as the "sweet spot" which refers to level's 6 through 12. This sweet spot is thusly named because it is at these levels that D&D is most balanced when it comes to classes, spellcasting power and melee damage, and even monsters versus PC's. At low levels PC's have too little hp and risk death with lucky crits, and at high levels a single spell can mean doom for a whole party if cast right. Thus, the sweet spot.

There is really only a few ways to make things more balanced:

1) Add more powerful items for nonspellcasters. Make sure some of these items have, or can cast spells that make casters so powerful; things like deathward, freedom of movement, stoneskin, etc. However, this method increases the level of magical power on the server, thus making Sundren more of a "high magic" server, but it will balance things more.

;or;

2) Reduce the power and duration of many of the problem spells. A save for Word of Faith, minute per level duration for deathward and damage reduction spells, etc. This will reduce the power of spellcasters to a degree, but not a huge one, and it requires a ton of scripting for each spell to be diminished.

;or;

3) Quite simply, reduce the cap to 15 again. 15 is still high level, but players will only have a limited amount of such spells (only a few castings of the more powerful spells). This method basically tries to keep players near the "sweet spot" and away from the truly high levels.

Also something to remember: this is an RP server, not a powergame dueling server. It shouldn't be that big a deal to only have a cap of 15.

This is, of course, only my opinion.

[07paul87]

I'm not looking for a completely level playing field, but I'd like to see the melee classes stand a chance against casters, and be able to be useful when braving the wilds.

As far as levels, I'm very biased. I've never had a character get above level 10 on any PW, mostly because I start to lose interest in that character. The lower levels are simply the most fun for me. Everyone has a role, and they must fill that role while partied or die.

[Dragor]

The bottom line is that D&D isn't completely balanced, especially at the high levels.

There is really only a few ways to make things more balanced:

1) Add more powerful items for nonspellcasters. Make sure some of these items have, or can cast spells that make casters so powerful; things like deathward, freedom of movement, stoneskin, etc. However, this method increases the level of magical power on the server, thus making Sundren more of a "high magic" server, but it will balance things more.

;or;

2) Reduce the power and duration of many of the problem spells. A save for Word of Faith, minute per level duration for deathward and damage reduction spells, etc. This will reduce the power of spellcasters to a degree, but not a huge one, and it requires a ton of scripting for each spell to be diminished.

;or;

3) Quite simply, reduce the cap to 15 again. 15 is still high level, but players will only have a limited amount of such spells (only a few castings of the more powerful spells). This method basically tries to keep players near the "sweet spot" and away from the truly high levels.

Also something to remember: this is an RP server, not a powergame dueling server. It shouldn't be that big a deal to only have a cap of 15.

A few counterpoints

1) Adding items that cast the "OP" spells to make things easier on a fighter/rogue/swash would also make things easier on the spellcasting builds (especially sorc/FS/SS types that get limited spell selections) when it becomes known where and how fast you can get the items it will start affecting how people will think out those builds.

2) I've already advocated a save on anything that causes blindness, reducing the duration to a minute per level on spells will not make that much difference on a higher level caster at level 15 those spells are lasting longer than an in game hour and any caster worth their salt has extend spell. Also from what I understand on the scripting aspect of this it wouldnt take that long to change after figuring out how to do it initialy(I would have to look into it more to be sure).

3)I can't speak for everyone but this would go a long way toward making me take an early exit as a player on this server.

[Sir Kharn]

Reduce the cost of potions and the UMD requirement for certain scrolls or make a feat for non casters (and only non casters) that does this.
There are many good ideas for balance in this thread and i'm sure that Saulus and the Devs can sift thru and find the answers
Wiping the server and lowering the lvl to 15 is not the answer, sure it might be easyer to do but its not the right one.

[Philosopher]

I would like to point out that I said nothing about a vault wipe, only that the cap returned to 15. Those already above 15 would simply be brought down to 15, or even allowed 16, for their trouble.

[Sir Kharn]

I would like to point out that I said nothing about a vault wipe, only that the cap returned to 15. Those already above 15 would simply be brought down to 15, or even allowed 16, for their trouble.

Regardless, i still dont think IMO that that is the answer...
Would such a feat as i mentioned above or a reduction in the cost for potions and the reduction of UMD requirement for scrolls be hard?
I'd like to hear some actual feedback on this.

[caterpillar]

Yet one of my briliant notes. I remember some server, can't remember name though, where the Clerics had to visit their temple at least once a game day and pray there to keep their ability to cast spells. They also could pray outside the temple, in the fields, but there was something limitative in it. If the clerics did not visit their temple they were slowly loosing there ability to cast spells. The field praying slowed it down a bit, but not too much (I think the spell failure was slowly rising).

The mages had to sleep in the pub or guesthouse at least once a day to keep their ability memorize the spells. They could sleep in campside, but with the same effect as the clerics praying outside the temple. It just slowed down the spellfailure a bit.

But how exactly did it work, I do not know. I only now that rogues and fighters were not effected by this, because of their unability to cast spell. Yep. And when the mage wanted to go to sleep, she had to have some food in her inventory. No food, no sleeping . Food was available by the crafting players and in the market I think.

Yet one note, the clerics hed to catch the morning prayers. If they came later, they had to wait until the next day or just pray in the park, or in the temple with limited options.

[BedlamX]

honestly, I have very little problems with toons being dropped to a 15 level max. Personally, I would do 16 to get the ability raises to an even number, but whatever.

Only problems would be those who only make builds that shine at level 20+ leaving in a huff and having to redo all the encounter difficulties in the higher areas to tone them down to "survivable" at the reduced level.

A vault wipe is almost always a bad idea. All the RP and building up of stories just vanishes and all the low areas get swarmed by everyone trying to grind their way back to where they were (or as close as they can get with whatever level caps get put in place).

[Machiavelli]

A vault wipe is almost always a bad idea. All the RP and building up of stories just vanishes and all the low areas get swarmed by everyone trying to grind their way back to where they were (or as close as they can get with whatever level caps get put in place).

The chances of a vault wipe are very low to none (although a reassessment of the level cap is always a possibility). That said, this is an RP server. The power of PCs in combat shouldn't be people's primary concern, and I don't understand why people would feel obliged to grind to increase their combat potential. I won't claim that levels aren't a part of RP effectiveness, but they're only one component.

[BedlamX]

The only problem I have with the idea of PC combat power not being a primary concern is that...well...it is a main concern to quite a few. While I really don't like PvP, there are a good number that just thrive on it and make characters specifically for that. It definitely adds to the RP. But it also forces others to build stronger to have a hope of not getting killed by another PC every few days.

But, my point in mentioning the low areas being overrun after a wipe was more just a matter of crowding and logistics. Imagine the entire server with level 3 toons. Ten to twenty (or more) newb toons running around the hills hunting goblins would be pretty chaotic. Funny as hell. But chaotic.