Jail-Breaking our Hearts

[Silas North]

@Nascent-
I rather like the idea of reduced Sundren faction rep for captured criminals. However...

The 99.5% figure was not an actual calculation. It was said to make a point. Players crowd around people like Emiliana, Peridan, and other Legion troops with mockery based ONLY on the results of what is happening with PCs. Legion players have a right to complain oocly about these unfair bombardments and I feel for them. However, the fault does not lie with the DMs in this specific matter. My suggestion to Legion players is to look upon characters that bombard you with this sort of thing as though there is something wrong with them in the head, and here is why...

PCs are a MINORITY. They make up a FRACTION of Sundren's total population. We're talking not even 1% here. Yet, the actions of PCs are the ONLY thing some of these people seem to be taking into account. This means they're ignoring the actions of everything else. Unless you're playing a character with a problem in logical thought, WHY would your character realistically be blind to virtually everything going around them to acknowledge ONLY a minority? In some ways, that's a form of meta.

Yes, the DMs job is to create fun. But how the heck are they going to have TIME for creating fun if they're too busy tending to every single NPC? "Sorry no time for your tale, I got to rp NPC guards hauling in an NPC criminal, then do it a hundred more times so it's realism is easy to observe and does not create confusion." If criminals manage to hijack an Exigo caravan, do we just assume ALL Exigo business comes to a screeching halt? And if you answered "yes", is the remedy for such having DMs playing constant SUCCESSFUL caravan deliveries? You see the problem here?

As for rping with Legionaires in capturing NPCs, this is indeed a good idea.... And it's been done. It probably WILL be done again some time in the future. Heck, I captured a few NPC criminals with Os when he was working with the Legion. However, when a few months or so passed WITHOUT me or another Legion player doing an event that involved capturing an NPC, we didn't automatically assume the world stopped spinning. PCs only make up a small number of the Legion. NPC Legionaires catch crooks and lock them up. This activity is as normal as the sun rising and setting and should not require constant 'updates' by a DM. Doubt explained this VERY clearly and very well.

As for raising the death penalty, we were talking about ACTUAL death, perma, toast, buh-bye. Perma is pretty much the biggest 'penalty' a single character can have. The point in this matter is that the difficulty in being perma'd by actions such as getting stabbed should, more or less, match that of being perma'd by law. And this also includes the way to 'escape' such fates. Why should the criminal who got caught be any more susceptable to perma than the good guy who wandered into a trap and got cut down?

[Redjack]

As a supporter of the dark side, I think lowering rep with sundren faction would be great.
The downside, large rep decreases would quickly cripple lower level evil doers.
Not being able to shop in town or the trade house would make progression difficult.
High level bad guys would quickly depopulate a map of npc's just passing through. Which would inconvenience other players. And those unkillable npc's will wear anyone down in time.
I'm sure the developers would come up with a workable solution.

[Doubtful]

The staff is currently talking through different options for the jail and punishment system, our aim is to provide a tangible element of risk for people who choose to break the laws, while keeping things fun, playable and not punishing the player for a characters actions.

While rep loss is something that may be included it will never take a character into a negative or hostile rep level with the Legion NPCs, the reasons for this are as Redjack has mentioned, the risk of high level bad guys simply slaughtering every NPC on map is to great, not to mention game breaking for other players.

On the subject of killing NPCs, I must mention this from the server rules.

-PvP combat is permitted everywhere in Sundren. However, you should consult with a DM before attacking in cities, towns, or highly-populated areas. Witnesses and guards might intervene, and it would be unfair to all parties involved to allow unintelligent, un-possessed NPCs to represent reactions to a violent conflict.

This should be taken to include launching attacks against NPCs in an area.

If you want to attack a populated area, request DM assistance. If you do not have DM assistance you will be violating the server rules and will be subject to relevant punishments.

[Doubtful]

Statment: The DM's primary job, as written in the Players handbook and the DMG, states "The primary job of a DM is to tell a story that is fun for the players and themselves as storytellers." Now, I'm sure the storytellers are having fun, but as has been mentioned by previous posts by people within the legion, they are NOT having fun being bombarded with being told they are the most incompetant soldiers for letting everyone go. "Out of sight, out of mind" Applies precisely in this case. The only things ever mentioned by anyone are the jail breaks, so that is all that matters.

Suggestion: The DM's AND the players should make posts, that show that the legion is actually doing it's job, efficiently, and perhaps there could be a few events for the legion/hands where they get to capture lawbreakers (NPC) and they are actually arrested and not broken out.

The DMs do run events based on the capture of NPC outlaws and criminals, some of these have been done on request, others on a whim. Grinning Death has had a substantial series of NPC bounties up for quite some time (Here) though as only one has been killed I have to assume the player interest has been fairly minimal.

Otherwise, as I mentioned previously it's a safe to assume that the game world carries on as normal when players aren't watching. A lot of things that aren't represented in-game, either due to coding, engine or time restrictions, do in fact happen. The Legion does it's job as a military force keeping the various hostile forces of the land in check (even though it and other forces struggle at times) while enforcing martial law in the city and towns. This can be seen as general setting ambiance or lore and is established though setting information sources such as the Wiki or from the Public Information forums. Concerning the Legion and what should be the general view, this seems relevant.

Sundren is a land of laws and religions, its jurisprudence heavily influenced by the teachings of the Helmite clergy -- oftentimes swayed by practical concerns of the church of Waukeen -- and its judiciary tempered with the justice of Tyr, with a smidgen of Ilmater's mercy at times.

The degree of enforcement varies throughout the valley state, and the fairness of the legal system overall is adequate, if unexceptional, relative to the rest of the Realms. Still, it is because of Sundren's sound governance and effective laws that the people of the valley may sleep sound at night in their homes.

Players exist as exceptions from the general setting and are both rightly and wrongly the focus for pretty much everything that goes on. Rightly, because the world is built for players to come in and play. Wrongly, because people build assumptions based purely on the actions and reports of those players, rather than combining player information sources with the existing lore. This tends to manifest as players ignoring or not considering NPC actions; running around town with bears or weapons, or marching up Schild and then justifying their actions with something as stupid as "I was out for a walk when they just attacked me".

Should the DM team spend a few hours less in game each week and dedicate that time to writing up what the NPCs did with the other NPCs?

No. The DM team are player focused, running events and stories in game are our priorities, each DM has a limited amount of time each week that can be put into Sundren, this is spent as it should be, on the players.

There's also the 'Chekovs Gun' thing to keep in mind, outside of the established background (lore and stuff) it's best not to introduce elements to a story that aren't actually going to be used. If an item or NPC gets mentioned it should relate to either an action taken, or an action that can or will be taken. Having things crop up with no real reason is distracting; imagine if during the last Lord of the Rings film, just after the doomed charge by the bearded bloke who looks a bit like David Thewlis we'd cut away to a separate part of the city and met a bunch of characters who we'd never met before doing stuff that had no bearing at all on the plot and who we'd never see again. It'd be confusing and pointless, a waste of everyone's time.

When DMs introduce something via story or in-game it is almost always seen as relevant to things that are happening. Spawned NPCs or animals get followed around, spot checks rolled at them or conversations started on nothing more than the principle that because they are there or have been mentioned, they must be important. The forums are akin to a newspaper being read by a character in a film or book, not every piece of trivial and everyday news is going to be read out or shown, only the key stories that relate to the plot at hand.

To reinforce the point - Players and DM events tend to be the exception, the break from the norm and the established setting: Across the land people sleep soundly in their beds content that the Legion are doing what they can to keep criminals and monstrous orcs alike from overrunning the land. Prisoners stay in prison, or don't make it to trial if they put up to much of a fight, the exception being those fate-touched (anti)heroes that are PCs, or the exceptional members of the genpop that are NPCs of note. Keep the setting in mind when considering the actions of other characters within it.

[Nascent_Legion]

As a suggestion for evil doers with (supposedly if the previous suggestion of mine was implemented) negative sundren rep being unable to sell, I suggest thusly.

1. Change it so all factions buy ALL items from their members.

From what I've experienced in the black hand, the only reason I ever have for going TO the trading house, is because my faction won't buy about 50% of what I find. If they did, I'd never go to the trading house, I wouldn't need it, I have a faction. As to the fact they might not be able to bank, I suggest thusly:

2. Designate a non-legion controlled area, perhaps the citadel as the black hand is the mostly likely to get caught doing evil things repeatedly, eboncoin is probably smarter then we are, and that way folk have alternatives to the two pivotal elements of the city of sundren.

Now, this doesn't fix buying potions, belts, shields, and any of the other various tertiary functions the city maintains. However, if you are (I can't stress this word enough) repeatedly breaking the law, and getting caught, then why are these merchants selling to such a well known criminal? If you were a known criminal back in medieval times, you were ran out of town or stoned to death, depending on the crime. Sometimes put in the stockade and the townsfolk would throw rotten food at you.

So, there you go. They could lose rep by repeatedly breaking the law and GETTING CAUGHT DOING IT, and still sell their loot and use the bank. Or they could, you know, roleplay with someone NOT hostile to those area's for the purposes of selling items, like most criminals would. Although, they could also just, you know, not get caught doing this blatantly illegal and evil stuff and getting a slap on the wrist and told to play nice.

Remember, I'm playing someone evil who intends, soon, to be breaking said laws and I'm sure I'll get caught at some point. When I do, I'd like it to feel like I actually got caught doing something bad. As to the time constraints of posting a few, and not hundreds like those who seem to like to over exaggerate like to make it sound like, threads might incur on the staff, I do have a suggestion you might like, that might even be able to be applied to other factions.

3. If the staff is player focused, then let the players be server focused. What I mean, is if some players are willing to, they can write up some posts that center on actions their faction are taking that are public, but those of us who are not totally cognizant of might not really understand. Then, have us submit them to the staff, and some of them, when approved, can be put up under the "Roleplay" portion of the forums. The posts would need to not be centered upon PC's, but help lay out an imaginative picture of how Sundren and it's people are managing to survive and still put up a brave front in the face of vampires, orcs, banites, sharans, terrorist druids, and the other assortment of "Bump in the night" things out there. I believe something like this might, in turn, become useful filler for those new to the server in settling in on their roleplay and their place in the valley.

Again, just a suggestion. I'm just saying, there are viable alternatives that can both improve the moods of those who are stuck looking like the fools while the villain gets to look like he's untouchable, and of giving a much richer view of the valley. As a suggestion if all else is denied, perhaps wait longer then just a few hours for any jailbreak? I mean, jail breaks really do take days or weeks of planning, even in medieval times. I really don't think a player is gonna be too inconvenienced if their character is in the slammer for a few server resets, at worst, before their buddies manage to spring them. I believe I am pretty rare in having only one character on the server, so they can play other alternates while their criminal is cooling his heels. That's just my personal opinion, I could be very wrong, and if I am, apologies.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

The DMs do run events based on the capture of NPC outlaws and criminals, some of these have been done on request, others on a whim. Grinning Death has had a substantial series of NPC bounties up for quite some time (Here) though as only one has been killed I have to assume the player interest has been fairly minimal.

Actually, there have been about five or six bounties killed since I started that. I just delete the old ones and put in new ones in order to keep things neat and tidy.

[Doubtful]

My mistake! Sorry

[ThePaganKing]

You can sell to the shady guy in the trade tier, but of course you have to Make a bluff, diplomacy or intimidate roll to be able to do that. One failure means you can never sell to him....damn those pesky role play skills. He does buy anything you have to sell and is a great rp way to sneak into town and sell your ill gotten loot.

He has been there for a long time.

[Satoshi]

Irregardless is not a word. 50 points from Sinistrum!

Also, while Hands may be able to 'get away with it', don't expect to get away clean. Commoners are terrified of mind control and the Hands leadership is very cognizant of that. A Hand running around and enslaving the minds of others willy-nilly is a PR nighmare and can expect to find themselves collecting guano for a month if they terrify enough people.

Irregardless is an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since it first appeared in the early twentieth century. Most dictionaries list it as "nonstandard" or a word which has become socially acceptable. "Nonstandard" means the word is a colloquialism, not "incorrect" or not a word.

A little late, but whatever. Now, on to more recent topics in the thread. I think that there should be a few small tweaks to the module to allow for truly heinous players to become hated with the Sundren faction at large. I mean, good guys can assault the bad guy npcs in almost every area so it's only fair that the bad guys can do the same to us en force. Much like how the 'quest giving' and 'faction store' NPCs are inaccessable to non-faction attackers in Veritas and the Black Hand, so too could the relevant NPCs be set up on the good alignment side.

In addition, if accessability was a major concern it should be noted that the Exigo Faction has a huge public area (Exigo Trade Camp) that isn't tied to Sundren faction at all. I know that high level players could attack certain areas of the server and 'wipe out' the NPCs in short order, but even that could be changed by simply setting them up as respawnable and tweaking their CR. If certain NPCs cannot be put in a suitably safe location, they could be simply set immortal and bite level 22+ player ankles until they give up and go away.

Just my two stags.

[Kitsunestume]

Most of the evil-doers, thieves, cut-throats, and general ne'er-do-wells play it smart and avoid getting caught. We all know OOC who is Eboncoin and Cartel, but do you see Kitsunetsume, Daniel, or Kirk being hauled into the jail? No, because they conduct their nefarious activities in private.

Good to know the precautions we take to go unnoticed are noticed.
>.> Wait, what?
[edit: Not to mention, Kitsunetsume has actually been expelled from the prison before]

[Blurb, blurb, Eirimil, underpowered casters, moreblurb]

On a tangentially related note, it would be interesting to see a bit more use for the disguise skill, and I can see a very good use in Satoshi's suggestion. Have each disguise kit so that, instead of sticking you to one of plain polymorphs, instead connect to one player-faction, and while disguised (if the disguise is good enough) you get friendly rep with the faction you are disguised as. You could disguise yourself as a faction-person, if your disguise is good enough you could walk straight through 'hostile' territory, and do whatever panderingly good/evil deed you were intending, possibly freeing an ally from jail without making the Legion/BlackHand look like complete incompetents. If not . . . well, your barely armed and armored with a room of people trying to kill you. you shoulda known the risks.

Another 5 cp from Kit.
Total contribution to this thread: 1 stag, 5 silver, 5 copper
((what are those other denominations, anyhow?))

[Peridan]

We all know OOC who is Eboncoin and Cartel, but do you see Kitsunetsume, Daniel, or Kirk being hauled into the jail?

Whoa, whoa.

I firmly maintain that Dan is actually Corps de Grace.

[Standur]

Whoa, whoa.

I firmly maintain that Dan is actually Corps de Grace.

I thought he was a message boy. See this is why Daniel gets away with so much. Nobody really knows anything about him.