Jail-Breaking our Hearts

[Aniril_Telin]

I have cast that spell IC all of mmm twice... ever.

[Chiangtao]

I have cast that spell IC all of mmm twice... ever.

There are plenty of bad guys who have experienced the opposite though.

I do like the idea of more ransoms,loss of items, public flogging,etc.

I don't like the idea that a resurrection of your target means you can't face ultimate crimes. It cheapens death because of a contradiction: most killed people don't get resurrected, but nearly all killed PC's get resurrected. I hate the idea of players not considering true risk of death with their actions, be it adventuring or murdering.

[ManUtd4Ever]

I hate the idea of players not considering true risk of death with their actions, be it adventuring or murdering.

Too true. Imagine how you would react in if you came across someone who was able to resurrect the dead with a simple incantation, or conjure an acid storm, or turn someone to stone, etc. I know at a minimum I would not provoke them.

Yet, my 20th level caster is routinely challenged. I find this so hard to believe because unless you're a caster too with a death ward or anyone else confident enough to make a fortitude save of 29 or higher... why provoke anyone who is an Avatar of their god?

So I agree with Chiangtao and would encourage players to consider the true risk of death before taking action.

Cheers!

[roguethree]

Maybe an increase in vitality penalty for CvC (not CvE) deaths would be appropriate? A larger penalty (50-80 for similarly leveled PCs?) would do a lot to discourage people from sallying forth post-death and actually encourage them to rp the effects of being beaten within an inch of their life / however you rp waking up in your temple or faction HQ. As it is now, there's no mechnical reason to not throw yourself at whatever insurmountable badass on the off chance you could get lucky because the penalty for failure is really minor. I would love to see the masses scatter before Clive again (Hint, Clive: Log in) instead of heroically dying at his feet.

[Standur]

Maybe an increase in vitality penalty for CvC (not CvE) deaths would be appropriate? A larger penalty (50-80 for similarly leveled PCs?) would do a lot to discourage people from sallying forth post-death and actually encourage them to rp the effects of being beaten within an inch of their life / however you rp waking up in your temple or faction HQ. As it is now, there's no mechnical reason to not throw yourself at whatever insurmountable badass on the off chance you could get lucky because the penalty for failure is really minor. I would love to see the masses scatter before Clive again (Hint, Clive: Log in) instead of heroically dying at his feet.

I like the vitality penalty suggestion and I would extend it to things besides CvC. If you're flogged for a crime you're not likely to be out and about the next day kicking butt and taking names. The same applies to being tortured for information. The penalty would cut both ways and require some role-play to simulate recovery or risk perma-death if you don't want to play it out.

[blurry89]

Maybe an increase in vitality penalty for CvC (not CvE) deaths would be appropriate? A larger penalty (50-80 for similarly leveled PCs?) would do a lot to discourage people from sallying forth post-death and actually encourage them to rp the effects of being beaten within an inch of their life / however you rp waking up in your temple or faction HQ.

I could get on board for this if class balance / certain spells weren't so ridiculously out of whack.

[Doubtful]

From all the various polls and threads we've had asking if we should have more perma death or perma jail, by far and away the most popular answer is: "Yes, so long as it can't happen to my characters"

I don't like the idea that a resurrection of your target means you can't face ultimate crimes. It cheapens death because of a contradiction: most killed people don't get resurrected, but nearly all killed PC's get resurrected. I hate the idea of players not considering true risk of death with their actions, be it adventuring or murdering.

It's very silly to have jail time exceeding the time imposed on a respawnable PC. Cornuto has given us some very good examples of this here. PC death is currently cheap, the punishment for committing it needs to be equally cheap. Otherwise all anyone arrested needs to do is commit a prompt suicide or ensure they're not taken alive and they can respawn with impunity.

For jailing people for murder to mean something, murder needs to mean something. 10 mins of waiting to respawn isn't something.

That's PC death though, NPC death is a beast of a different colour. A character who goes around killing faction NPCs and who is caught for it should be tried (not just arrested, not just taken to some automated script) and punished or released according to the results of the trial and the judge.

This would need to be extended to all factions, committing a murder level crime against their NPCs could see you tried by that faction and facing the same consequences (heavy penalties or perming). Something to keep in mind when in the Cartel and Veritas areas.

Maybe an increase in vitality penalty for CvC (not CvE) deaths would be appropriate? A larger penalty (50-80 for similarly leveled PCs?) would do a lot to discourage people from sallying forth post-death and actually encourage them to rp the effects of being beaten within an inch of their life / however you rp waking up in your temple or faction HQ.

I like the vitality penalty suggestion and I would extend it to things besides CvC. If you're flogged for a crime you're not likely to be out and about the next day kicking butt and taking names. The same applies to being tortured for information. The penalty would cut both ways and require some role-play to simulate recovery or risk perma-death if you don't want to play it out.

I agree with both of these, though changes would need to be monitored to prevent griefing or abuse. It would also make those Signii very effective for both their original and current uses.

DMs have tools to subtract vitality from players so lashings, torture and so on overseen by a member of the DM team can be made to have lasting physical effects.

I could get on board for this if class balance / certain spells weren't so ridiculously out of whack.

Class and spell balance is a problem, it's D&D, by it's very nature it isn't balanced.

That said, the 60-80 points for level equiv CvC death isn't an insta kill, so there shouldn't be much risk of sudden perma death to people who monitor the health and well being of their character. The chances are it would even introduce a certain level of paranoia in higher level casters as being known for being able to quickly take people down will in turn make them a target for groups of people.

The question that needs to be answered in all of this is "Is it Fun?"

[Kitsunestume]

Another potential mechanic that could be used, either instead of, or to compliment, the vitality penalty could be a (debuff) negative level in a decently matched CvC combat. Unless you have access to Restoration out-of-hand, it would require you to either avoid further combat, or go find someone with the requisite capacity. And negative levels stack, so getting whapped more than once will become progresively worse.

On a more general note with this thread, I think that there should be more options than just 'Jail or death'. The public humiliation is a nice touch and gets other people still involved in the arrest.

The faction-jail-teleport system would be handy if it were implimented, but it would then require that all sub-factions had a copy of the key needed to get to their factions jails. As far as I am aware, the Hands of Mundus and Chartel do not have keys for the Sundren Jail or the Eboncoin Lair, respectively, and would make arrests for them rather difficult.

Just to add complexity onto the already progably-programming-nighmare already laid out for the Jail system, It would seem reasonable to have increased punishment for multiple offenders, either in terms on jail-time, fines, reputation, or other methods.

Just my cent and a half.
I'm saving the other half cent for later.
Cheers,
Kit

[blurry89]

Classs and spell balance is a problem, it's D&D, by it's very nature it isn't balanced.

I used to buy into this train of thought, but recent experiences with persistant worlds have shown me otherwise. The ability to change and modify spells/classes/items to level the playing field is there. Here's hoping that the Big Damn Update addresses these issues.

The question that needs to be answered in all of this is "Is it Fun?"

As one of the few players who's had a permanent negative ability modifier applied to my PC for their actions, I can say that it was fun. And it added to the RP. Conflict is good, but when consequences are tossed out the window, and only rewards are given, it becomes meaningless and stagnant.

[Vaelek]

From all the various polls and threads we've had asking if we should have more perma death or perma jail, by far and away the most popular answer is: "Yes, so long as it can't happen to my characters"

For some reason, this seems a terribly common response from DMs..
Is this up-to-date? I don't mean to demean your response, Doubt, it's great to see you in on the thread.
It's just, I haven't ever really seen it this played by the majority.

Maybe I'm out of the loop on this stuff, maybe I'm completely and utterly blind. The majority of players I've interacted with on Sundren seem to enjoy repercussions for their actions, in-so-far as it's done with a modicum of sense and of course, roleplay.

In the past, there were a few extremely vocal players with a passionate distaste for perma-death. But those players, or at the very least the ones I know of, are no longer active on the server.

We already know we can't cater to everyone's needs, and I really don't think we're trying to do so anyways. I'm not suggesting 30 days extended jail time or mass permanent killings. It's just, speaking in-game to various players both new and old as well as reviewing opinions on the forums..
It doesn't really seem like people are enjoying the lack of severity offered to confrontational RP, and perhaps as a due effect of that we aren't seeing very much of it anymore.

There's not any point to vampires trying to murder Emiliana or Dain, and the newer rising heroes know even if they do kick Ruby's ass, she'll be back the next evening to prey on their (un)fortunate male Paladins.
Sadly, conflict has become something of a joke.


Which is all really just to say that I approve of many of this thread's suggestions, and hope that PC driven conflict can become worthwhile again with appropriate repercussions implemented.

[Silas North]

@Vaelek-
I realize in many ways I can't speak for the current sundren cast as much as I could the past ones. However (and don't take this personal as it's my own opinion), I sincerely doubt they are exceptions to the norm I see in many server players; SAYING they are fine with repercussions, but not following through with such. They're fine with dying or getting 'penalties', but only on their terms. This is somewhat understandable as virtually no one wants their character to be a mere casuality of some kind of accident or war. They want a more glorious death. However, lump so many desires together and it can cause problems.

Players don't need DM intervention in order to die, recieve scars, walk with a limp for a while, or any of the RP elements associated with such. The only thing they'd need a DM for is the elements of penalties from a game mechanic standpoint (such as loss of vitality. Kudos to whoever suggested that). Between rp and game mechanics, I'd say the former is more important. Maybe I'm taking my own experiences too closely to heart, but it seems like the DMs are mostly just AFRAID to act. They worry about the repercussions for their repercussions. If more players showed more interest in a 'cost' for their actions amongst themselves, DMs may not be so shy.

@Blurry-
I definitely agree with you. While it often is not as bad as many people say, the balance of the battle system is indeed an issue. And you're right about better balance being obtained in some cases. I think Dragoncoast is one of the best examples I've seen in the gamespy servers. Unfortunately, some programs just don't work on certain servers. Tweaking a few choice spells and abilities would work wonders. Sadly, that's easier said than done. It's clear NVN2's battle system was not meant for CvC anyway...or if it was, it missed the mark

@Chiangtao-
Players not being held accountable for non-perma deaths in the courts is no more cheapening of death than a spell that *poof* makes death as inconvient as a rash. There's a reason I, and many others, play 'death' off as mere unconsciousness unless you are actually perma'd. The bottom line here is that you should not be any more vulnerable to perma via the law of the land as you should a knife in your back. It's just not fair. Just like Doubt, I'm going to have to point to Corn's examples.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

Dunno about other DM's, but I've been handing out significant penalties for law breaking. And I know Polt has been doing the same.

As people report occurrences to me, I'll continue to do so with keeping fairness in mind. However, that will certainly not stop me from locking your PC away for a few days, or taking away gold/xp/vitality.

If any players think me unfair, they are certainly able to petition Saulus or other senior staff. And that's really all I have to say about it.

[SeekerofKnowledge]

I like every DM I have interacted with here. Always had a fun time in events, win or lose. I'm currently playing a character who will most likely have major consequences for their actions, execution or eternal torture chief among them. I have prepared myself for those eventualities should they come to pass, and I think most other players I've met here would do the same.

Our DM staff is a good one, but I fear it's a bit too small to be omnipresent.

Having ways to do common things without a DM being on will help everybody out.
A DM should still be notified to deal with the situation, but people won't have to put everything on hold while they wait for a DM that might not be able to make it.


I do think an automated way to put someone in a holding cell for a time isn't a bad idea. A DM can be notified via Forum and proper processing or trial can go on from there. As is you have to get the Criminal player (s) on, the Arresting player (s) on and a DM on at the same time. Many people are put on hold because nobody can deal with the situation.

More consequences for actions leads to a richer overall story. I think many agree with this.

I fear this jail issue is being pushed under the Umbrella Issue of "What kind of consequences should people expect for their actions?" That issue is a good one, but I think everyone's strong opinions on it might color their view on the mechanical aspects of a jail system. I think many thematic discomforts with this current jail system have been alleviated, but I do think some of the mechanical suggestions offered here can only help everyone overall.

[Doubtful]

A fair concern.

What might work as a temporary solution could be simply giving Sundren Jail keys to those of a medium to high rank in the appropriate factions. They can then take people off to the Holding Cell block to await processing.

A writen (forum) report would need to be submitted as characters found in jail without the proper paperwork would need to be released.

One thing I personally would like to see more of is due process. All to often it's simply arrest & punishment. Where's the trials, lawyers, outrageous bluff skills, bribes, jury tampering, witness intimidation. Arrest =\= guilt.

[roguethree]

We need them in jail longer than twelve hours for that, as the jail breaks usually occur within that timeframe, when the inept legion is slain to a man by a lone assailant, or vampires come out at noon under cloud cover and stage an elaborate-but-impromptu ambush, or and so on.