Jail-Breaking our Hearts

[SeekerofKnowledge]

I've heard almost every player I've met have some issues at the ease which people break out of jail.

I would like to get everyone's opinions so we can understand this issue better.

It's no use pointing at something you think is a problem and crying "Fix it."
In that line of thought, here are a few things I think would make sense and make the jail more secure, and make any attempts to break people out more difficult and exciting. Breaking out of jail should be impressive, I think.

1. Unpickable locks. They seem to be in good supply, as quite a few factions have them. Legion should be no different here.

2. Cells are Silenced. This is a common solution to the magic prisoner problem.

3. Traps. Many times I've gone through an enemy faction's holding and been hit with paralysis or dispelling. A couple of these and other logical choices would really tighten security.

4. Have a few magic users stationed at the prison. A purge invisibility or sight spell could make the difference between a bold escape and a beefy guard bodychecking a frail magic using prisoner. Though to be fair I have seen no other faction holdings guard against the invisible. Can't show any favoritism after all

Please post other suggestions! I am confidant we can have an honest, civil discussion about what ails us and how we can rectify it.

[blurry89]

Most, if not all, jailbreaks are DM driven events.

It comes down to this - jailtime for a particularly viscious criminal is basically perma-death. And therein lies the problem.

For the lesser crimes (the most recent that I can recall being Sile and her impersonation of a Centurio), I think the system works just fine.

[Satoshi]

The problem lies with playing evil and getting caught in a city-state governed by Helmites and Tyrrans. Those players would be fined so heavily, put under constant surveillance and/or executed dead forever if the DMs treated the Legion/Church of Helm with any sort of competence. However, that's very depressing to the evil player-base (who already have a hard time as it is, if only due to their own incompentence). Most of the bad guy PCs would already be long since permed if we were following the lore. Then again, so would more than a few good guys.

But that's not how things play out in Sundren, due to how Saulus (and perhaps the staff) want the faction system to work out. To keep players playing, to keep PvP happening and conflict occurring, there cannot be overly-harsh repercussions. If being captured meant death/exile for serious for players, we'd end up back in the age of campfire RP where nothing happens. We already have enough of that.

tl;dr - It's an OOC mechanic choice that makes no sense IC, but we have to roll with it because that's the only way to keep faction conflict going. You have to look at it more akin to an MMO's death penalties and pvp than pen and paper D&D.

[Cornuto]

"Jail doesn't give harsh enough penalties."
"I'm fine with the death system."

These two statements cannot co-exist.

Jail will never have harsher penalties than death, and it's unfair to expect it to.

"Hey, that guy KILLED me yesterday."
"That's AWFUL!"
"I know, right, I was inconvenienced for 10 whole minutes."
"That monster! We better perma-jail him, and strip his entire inventory."

"Sir, we've delt with that pair of bandits. One resisted arrest and was killed, the other was taken into to custody."
"Ah so that's that then."
"Not exactly, the dead guy's back and struck two more caravans while we were on our way to make this report."
"And the one we arrested?"
"He'll be in jail for some time until he completes an epic level event to escape."

"Ah, Daggers McStabberson, famous assassin, I want to hire you to kill a particularly annoying Centurio."
"Hm, you want him dead-dead, because I can't really do that. I can maybe put him in the fugue for five or so minutes. However, assuming he's got enough spirit ju-ju he can come back pretty quickly. Even if he doesn't his squad-mates can bring him back with some divine intervention."
"Can you at least move the body somewhere to make it harder for them?"
"Cosmic law dictates that I cannot."
"So, if you succeed we'll only be rid of the wretch for five or so minutes? What if you fail?"
"I'll be subject to massive gold and item loss, and be out of commission for neigh on weeks."
"Let's just forget this whole thing."

[Handsomeman]

Make a new dungeon area like a secret underground tunnel. The dungeon should be full of places with skill checks(jump, climb, balance, etc), maybe multiple routes for different skills. Anyone should be able to get out, but if they have points in certain ones, it should be easier. But here's the catch, they have a do it within a certain time limit or certain amount of skill check failures. If not, a guard finds them and throws them back in jail and they can't attempt escape for an X amount of time.

[SeekerofKnowledge]

I would like to ask that more people click that "No" button. That way we have a clear short-view of the opinions. Which is good.

Those are some valid points. The fluff has to take a backseat to the crunch so the universe can exist at all.

That being said, I don't think breaking out should be impossible. Just some real steps taken to make it an actual feat.
I think perhaps breaking out of jail should be really more for higher level players. I feel it should be a more "epic" undertaking. The legion can't be blamed for not being able to control almost legendary figures after all.

My goal is to find a way to keep this balance of player fun while letting them feel the factions are smart and can do their jobs.

[FoogooFish]

Ah, jail breaks... the bane of my IC existence. They are used almost every single time to let a criminal escape, and then the ripple effect of "LOL LEGION R DUMB" follows in their wake.

I'd like to see more hefty fines used against criminals who get caught. I'd also like to see more trials done for the higher offenses. I don't even mind if other PCs try to spring their companion from behind bars - use some social skills to pretend to be the caught person's attorney, post a bond, and walk out scott free! But to me, a DM letting someone escape a half hour after getting arrested by murdering the jail guard NPCs for the umpteenth time seems to invalidate the work that was done by Legion/Hand PCs who apprehended the criminal in the first place. It's frustrating for the PCs who did what they were supposed to do IC to have someone escape with minimal effort right after they walk out the door.

I understand that PCs don't want to be stuck in jail for ages, which is why I strongly propose the usage of hefty fines, trials, and PC-assisted escapes, but please understand that the PCs on the other side want to be validated as well. It's getting rather difficult for my ranking Legion character to explain IC why escapes keep happening even after she's taken measures to establish arrest protocols. Looking incompetent for reasons outside your control gets old.

[blurry89]

Looking incompetent for reasons outside your control gets old.

Hi, roguethree.

[Doubtful]

Blurry is correct, Jail Breaks are almost always DM led events, the jail itself is equipped with unpickable lock and should be considered warded against normal extra-dimensional travel and many magics.

The perceived ease of escape is, again as already mentioned by a few people, down to OOC factors.

This game is played for fun, fun normally involves interaction with other people which is hard to do if your character is locked away for weeks or months IRL. Having harsh punishments for playing severly anarchic or evil characters goes against the idea of playing for fun, it become punishment for playing a non lawful or non good character.

Roleplay, be it evil, good, chaotic or lawful should be rewarded, not punished.

[SeekerofKnowledge]

I feel that the current system is a punishment to lawful players. Especially the ones that have to try to keep the unlawful ones in line.

I don't want players to never be able to play their character again because they got caught.

Having different jail penalties rather than bypassing the ones in place sounds like a vote to change the system.

*Edited for tone giving emoticons*

[ManUtd4Ever]

My goal is to find a way to keep this balance of player fun while letting them feel the factions are smart and can do their jobs.

I applaud the initiative... but do you feel you're empowered to achieve this goal? The goal you set? This is a fundamental but very important question.

For imprisonment to mean anything it has to serve as a deterrent. Players will have to think twice before they take any action that could lead them to be caught and serve time in jail. Accordingly, being placed in jail must be a mechanical action that has a timed consequence.

The easiest way to do this would be to have a NPC judge in the Entertainment District. Any member of the Hand, Redblades, or Legion could bring a person to said Judge. The dialog with the judge is triggered just like a faction store is so a member of Exigo could not reprimand someone to jail via this dialog.

If I were a Legionnaire, then my captive would have to be in my party. If I triggered the dialog with the judge and he passes sentence, then we all are sent to jail. The captive would be mechanically held in the jail for XYZ hours or days (just like the Fugue). Their sentence would be viewable in their status log just like vitality is. As for the Legionnaire being placed in jail… as a member of the Legion he or she can use their universal [read: faction] key and simply open the jail cell door and walk out.

Mechanical solutions resolve the need for a DM, which is simply not a sustainable solution given the fact Sundren is a 24/7 server with a playing population scattered all over the globe.

Cheers!

[SeekerofKnowledge]

The only power I have is sharing my thoughts with the community to get their thoughts in return. Yay being a person!

I like the detail you put in. A mechanical solution that deals with it automatically, like when we die, is a very interesting idea.

It would allow for quick short term resolution of events until a DM could review the situation.

Are you saying the judge would have a list of infractions the PC could pick from?

[ManUtd4Ever]

Are you saying the judge would have a list of infractions the PC could pick from?

No. You said that... and I like it. I think that would be ideal if the Legionnaire could select the ala-cart menu of infractions with each having a different sentence duration.

[SeekerofKnowledge]

It is a difficult problem. You can't have an NPC judge what actions took place IC.

But having a set system of penalties for the law would keep people from being shocked and add weight to their actions when they do commit crimes.

The PC infraction selection could streamline the process once we have the legal system in order.

I think that's a solid concept to keep in mind as we discuss this issue. I hope we can get more ideas like that shared here.

[Satoshi]

ManUtd4Ever, that's an awesome feedback suggestion that would really help Sundren faction PCs deal the lower end 'petty' criminal acts. It having to be coded is a small problem (as it is with anything being added to Sundren), but the idea itself is very sound. Lawful Evil could abuse it legitimately to extort people. Lawful Good could use it to punish the wicked. Lawful Neutral could be THE LAW!

Serious crimes (the kind that end you up with a 'Wanted: Dead' on the Bounty page) should start getting a look-over from DMs with the added risk of Vitality loss on capture/death. Same thing with Black Tax assassinations and the like. The mechanics are in place, but they need to be used (with DM support).