Revisit of PVP - What should it be?

[Sathayorn]

I didnt vote, but I'd agree with this if there were a script put in to allow picking up peoples bodies and dragging them off to temples, where you might be able to speak with a cleric about raising them. Raise dead scrolls are really expensive, and should be as, if not more, expensive.

However, not having to create the scroll, therefor raising for a donation alone should be cheaper (not "cheap") than buying a scroll. A level 6 is likely to have a lot of friends, so this would not completely screw them over. Even in Regular encounters this would be a great help, your party member dies and you have no choice but to make them respawn and run to the temple you're at... I don't kill as much as many people, I dont have the gold many do, There's no way I could spend 1500+ on a small item that might be lost or stolen easily.

[Soulbadguy]

What if.. there is a way.. so if you died.. and if you couldn't be raised and had to respawn.. your character was messed up for like 24 hours.. or 2 days or something..


I mean.. MESSED UP! couldn't fight.. like you ability points went to like 5 in like dex.. strength and con. Arcanists couldn't cast spells.. something like that.

So if you didn't get a rez or any magical means to heal right away (DM help and such) and must respawn ... you suffer the consequences big time.. You would have to roleplay being messed up for a couple days. I know people could cast restoration.. regeneration.. blah blah.. but for the sake of a persistant world sometimes you have to go out of the rules and just say that your character is so messed up they can barely walk.

I would hate for this to happen even for 24 hours.. your character would be screwed.. if some killer came around attempted to assassinate.. and it didn't go through and got their arses killed .. meaning they would most likely have to respawn. They would suffer big time cause their character would be in this.. Messed up mode and that assassin would have a difficult time beating up a goblin..

If the assassin killed their target.. saying its a Player character and the victim didn't get any assistance.. they would be screwed for a day or whatever time could be implemented.


I don't know.. just a thought..

I never was fond of hearing people say they were killed 5 times in one day.. it would be cool to have someone say.. damn.. i friggin got my arse beat! I can barely walk.. *limps around holding his side with a grim expression*

[GodBeastX]

While I can understand that your character may cannot easily afford fifteen-hundred gold, I would wager that there are many characters to whom that amount is nothing but a pittance.

Regardless, and in response to GBX's initial statement, I do not think the price of scrolls needs lowering at all.

I was being silly

Also, even if you could drag a corpse to the temple and talk to the priest, I'd still charge the cost of a scroll to res em.

I think alot of people havn't played pen and paper, but in pen and paper, you can't cast res on people without materials. And these materials tend to be things like diamonds and such. Costly crap.

[valenator]

Permadeath usually refers to the ruleset by which PC's are unable to just respawn and require a resurrection, via PC or NPC, to be brought back to life.

A NWN 1 server I used to frequent had a slain PC leave a corpse, and the dead character was transported to the Fugue Plane (the FR equivalent of Purgatory, where you await resurrection or your god's emissary). PC's got a death token, and other PC's would either haul your corpse to an NPC cleric and pay for the appropriate rez, or an appropriately leveled PC cleric would perform the rez; the script worked in such a way that casting the raise/res spell on the corpse item removed the death token from the slain pc in question and transported him/her to wherever the res was cast.

Removing CR may cut down on senseless PvP, but it does create headaches for the purposes of grouping. Additionally, it's often possible to gauge a PC's level by the buffs shown upon "Examine." Really, the higher level "murderous" characters' players ought to have enough class to refrain from picking on low level PC's unless the low level PC brings it on him/herself.

Maybe a policy along the lines that any PvP initiated by a high level character must be done against a PC of no lower than "Moderate" difficulty, and require the instigating party to Screenshot the appropriate Roleplay warning of impending PvP. Another option could be to require DM supervision for any PvP; no DM, no PvP.

In any case, CR is a mechanic, but the problem is explicitly with the etiquette of the players. I do agree that PvP deaths should be treated as no-respawn, but I'm concerned about the number of low level characters that won't have a chance to really get rolling because some psychotic higher level PC offed them to collect body parts/doesn't like elves/has a traveler killing fetish, etc. I argue that a PvP rule system that uses CR as a restriction would be more effective alongside a permadeath policy, as opposed to removing CR.

[Sathayorn]

I was actually basing that on the fact it takes more time to prepare a scroll, they cost more than the material component alone, and so on.

[Diverdan]

What about a script that lets you respawn if your around friendly NPC's? i dont see it makeing much sence that you run back to town, getting stabed or shot in the back. then die, the killer takes off and the guards and villagers look at your body for 2 seconds then continueing whatever they were doing before. They would more likely drag you off to the temple.

Definatly piss of the CR on players. On another PW on nwn once that was gone PVP droped about 40-60%. I played a known outlaw for quite some time that no one messed with cause they didint know if they could kick his ass.

In my opinion. I dont care either way, i never did care much for PVP when lives are on the line. Get a subdue script! I love those!

[GodBeastX]

I was actually basing that on the fact it takes more time to prepare a scroll, they cost more than the material component alone, and so on.

Kids in sweat shops make our cleric scrolls. Mass production

[GodBeastX]

What about a script that lets you respawn if your around friendly NPC's? i dont see it makeing much sence that you run back to town, getting stabed or shot in the back. then die, the killer takes off and the guards and villagers look at your body for 2 seconds then continueing whatever they were doing before. They would more likely drag you off to the temple.

Definatly piss of the CR on players. On another PW on nwn once that was gone PVP droped about 40-60%. I played a known outlaw for quite some time that no one messed with cause they didint know if they could kick his ass.

In my opinion. I dont care either way, i never did care much for PVP when lives are on the line. Get a subdue script! I love those!

If they saw you laying dead, they'd bury you and say a funeral rite. It's cheaper

[Raksha]

Yes. Definitely in favor of all of this. A subdual script is something that I have long, long missed from a server that had it -- and the "poof" of a character just respawning inevitably after dying more or less means that any assassination-type plot or anything similar will fail for an illogical and OOC reason. It has gotten rather annoying trying to make excuses for what people respawn, especially from PvP. >_<

Also, yesplz on removing the challenge ratings. That way, I can read tasty descriptions without having to worry about accidentally metagaming. Not sure on the bluffs thing... with invisibility as utterly broken as it currently is, it is the only way I can tell if someone is actually invisible. >_>;

[undeadsteak]

Permadeath usually refers to the ruleset by which PC's are unable to just respawn and require a resurrection, via PC or NPC, to be brought back to life.

A NWN 1 server I used to frequent had a slain PC leave a corpse, and the dead character was transported to the Fugue Plane (the FR equivalent of Purgatory, where you await resurrection or your god's emissary). PC's got a death token, and other PC's would either haul your corpse to an NPC cleric and pay for the appropriate rez, or an appropriately leveled PC cleric would perform the rez; the script worked in such a way that casting the raise/res spell on the corpse item removed the death token from the slain pc in question and transported him/her to wherever the res was cast.

Removing CR may cut down on senseless PvP, but it does create headaches for the purposes of grouping. Additionally, it's often possible to gauge a PC's level by the buffs shown upon "Examine." Really, the higher level "murderous" characters' players ought to have enough class to refrain from picking on low level PC's unless the low level PC brings it on him/herself.

Maybe a policy along the lines that any PvP initiated by a high level character must be done against a PC of no lower than "Moderate" difficulty, and require the instigating party to Screenshot the appropriate Roleplay warning of impending PvP. Another option could be to require DM supervision for any PvP; no DM, no PvP.

In any case, CR is a mechanic, but the problem is explicitly with the etiquette of the players. I do agree that PvP deaths should be treated as no-respawn, but I'm concerned about the number of low level characters that won't have a chance to really get rolling because some psychotic higher level PC offed them to collect body parts/doesn't like elves/has a traveler killing fetish, etc. I argue that a PvP rule system that uses CR as a restriction would be more effective alongside a permadeath policy, as opposed to removing CR.

Yes, the high level shouldn't go picking on low levels.. But if the low level is asking for a fight, and the other person is pretty much in a bad mood or is evil, the low level is going to end up dead or atleast beaten the crap out of.

[Grigori]

First of all... I love Sundren and this is a big reason why...
Secondly, I innately hate PVP, so, of course I think the results from it should be harsh...
Lastly, Please don't remove difficulty identification from creatures... If you do, please make sure and post an approximate area guide so players at least know the 'range' of levels for an area (which doesn't necessarily have to include bosses or special creatures... like a roving insane troll or the chieftan)

[Tratz]

How about a Fugue Plane, a sort of afterlife incarceration for people who die. The player could have the choice to pass on or fight for a new lease on life. If their body is resurrected outside of the plane, they recieve a "get out of Fugue card?" After all, it's a fanciful thought in Faerun that life does not end when you die.

Maybe an epic quest for your diety to swing them in your favor and let you live with a slap on the wrist? Offering a piece of you (permanent stat point loss) or maybe even *gasp* appeasing your darker diety for a life of undeath and revenge? Just some interesting thoughts.

I am all for a hardcore setting, where death is real and consequential. It would bring a whole new level of threat to the dangers of Sundren and put the characters in a more understandible method of behavior. Removing challenge ratings is an absolute must do. Unless you've seen "that guy" fight and know for sure he's tough, you have no reason to assume they're anything at all (unless otherwise apparent). For example, Garion walks through the forest lit up like the fourth of july with magical auras, it's safe to assume you don't want to upset him.

We all like to assume we don't metagame. But the fact of the matter is, humans will be as humans are. Curious, hedonistic and oppertunistic. If you were walking down the street and were confronted by ruffian who threatened to beat you up for your lunch money and could poke him in the nose to figure out how tough he is in respect to you, not one person in this player community wouldn't. They'd gauge him, determine probable success or failure and act upon it instinctually. It's fight or flight.

In closing, removing challenge ratings and making death a very real consequence forces us to think what would my character really do in this situation? Thusly, they would act upon common knowledge and their own character's behavior profile and habitions.

[Saulus]

We decided from the start to never do a Fugue plane. This is a roleplay server and there is no valuable roleplay with some generic afterlife plane which always seems to offer an opportunity to come back to life again? That's just a horrible thing for immersion if you ask me.

[Neith]

- Increase in meta-gaming. "Come rescue me plz!" either in tells or in PMs/IM.

That happens as it is, regardless of death penalties, I think.

Anyways, I'm all for it. This will highly discourage adventuring alone, though, and although it doesn't sound like a bad thing, there are 5-10 people when I am on, and it's a little unlikely to pick a companion that'd suit a certain character.

[Azaroth Incubus]

Good Points. I have a couple too.

Hello,

I'm very new here I read through this thread and have a few points.

• I think removing the CR on Player Examine is good and bad. You can't really tell who is appropriate to group with. I don't think removing this will keep players from killing each other. The reason being, established people know the community. They know who is new and who is not. They have a good idea of who is what level. It also won't take long for someone new to figure out who is more powerful and who isn't. Meta gaming is the real issue.
• One of my concerns with PvP is getting ganked, or killed for whatever reason, RP'd or Not. I've seen many a bad thing done to innocent players under the guise of Roleplay. I don't like Drow, or I don't like Dwarves. All based upon what you look like. Well what If I'm a Elf with dark skin, but not a Drow? What if I'm a Drow but I choose light skin? How is someone really to know what race I am, or what god I serve unless I tell them or unless they are metagaming to make that conclusion.
• I've PnP for a very longtime. My players even when evil don't go around knifing people in the back when they feel like it. I think the reason is, they know eventually they will get caught, and getting caught often means death. Even a Paladin is subject to the law. Killing someone outright is still something to be approched very carefully.
• Perhaps giving PVP'ers a Faction hit could be an answer. Killing another person (especially a PC) isn't something that should be common. Make the initiator take a faction hit from attacking another player. Say make the City guard after multiple kills no longer freindly. Perhaps the faction hit wont' effect them in certain area's dubbed to be haven's for such characters. Also, let them be able to repair the faction damage they have caused, but make it difficult to do. Quests and such.
• Murdering another person regardless of how you look at it, is an evil act. Regardless of your reasons.

I agree that making PvP more "dangerous" so people don't do it as much is a good idea. However, if it effects or could effect innocent people badly, it's not a good idea. The changes you intend to make should only truly effect the person initiating the fight, not the person on the reciving end of it.