Revisit of PVP - What should it be?

[Abyss]

Yes - ALL PvP related deaths should be perma. Period. I've seen it implemented before, and I works just fine. However, the fight and deaths MUST (MUSTMUSTMUST) be roleplayed correctly (the definition of 'correctly' is, of course, open to interpretation). No one should be able to go up to a random person walking through town and kill them for no reason, and then that person is perma'd... No, no, no. Then again, that person could get clobbered by any PC's around him, so there's a countermeasure there I suppose.

But, anyways, at least if PvP deaths were perma it would help to discourage PvP, which should never ever be a player's/character's primary goal (Well, I suppose there are a few exceptions to that as well... But I'm going to shut up now).

EDIT: Oh, and definitely remove CR ratings from examine. It's just better that way, period.

[GodBeastX]

It's a start, but I personally think it might just make people want revenge more and generate yet more PvP. People who like PvP feel little satisfaction in killing someone who will just come back, but if it keeps them dead and all that, people will want revenge every time they are killed, going with as mob of friends. It makes sense in the way of people striking back, but the whole fixation on resolving everything by killing will remain.

I think something else is needed, be it instead or along with this: proper consequences. Killing is bad. Killing repeatedly in a world with wizards and spells is living on the run all over the world. But we don't have all over the world for people to flee unless they leave the server (heh ), so if it's a habit, killers will get caught. No matter how smart, no matter how disguised, no matter how sneaky. If a killing spree starts and there are no mundane clues, authorities will go after divine and arcane magic to find the murderer and make it stop. Assassins become powerful and successful only in two scenarios in a world with magic: by living in a place where they know the law will back them or by living on the run all across the continent. I don't think the server provides either and don't see why it should, being a somewhat "closed society"

Well, first paragraph, this isn't the mentality of the killers right now. The mentality tends to be "I'm badass, so why shouldn't I?" The fact people can respawn only makes them more likely to kill people, because in the back of their mind they go "This guy isn't losing anything, so I shouldn't feel bad killing him." Hence the concept of conscience goes away too.

Second paragraph, who says we don't go back and catch murders? There's one in the Sundren prison right now awaiting verdict The thing is, people tend to keep it to a unresolved back and forth act right now because they can just respawn with 0 problems and they see little need to poke authorities.

What this ALSO helps with, is if someone is killed somewhere, DM's have much more time to respond with IC actions to the person who will normally just respawn as soon as the option pops up.

Also, running away, I've ran from PVP already. Sometimes running isn't waiting until you have 5 hp and then running, it's leaving as soon as you see the guy. People in RL tend to be pretty close to same speeds too for running.

I think death is just not personalized enough for victims and for killers, and I think it needs to be slightly more real.

However, subdual mode will be in before I implement this if we end up implementing it.

For those unaware, this is where you can beat someone's face into the ground, but they don't die. Good for duels, bar fights, etc.

[Zoberraz]

Not be a character's primary goal?

Abyss, we're roleplayers. If someone shows himself to be an enemy to my character or what my character cares about, Maia will cut him down.

Also, frankly, Raise Dead scrolls are used a lot more for PvE purposes... which means that if raising if left only to the cleric that when characters will die, they'll stay on the ground and ~not~ have fun.

In addition, I've slowly begun taking measures with the law because even if I kill someone, they keep coming back as if nothing had happened. Nocte possibly being stuck in a jail would make Maia a lot happier than with him running around the countryside despite his death - much more than anything regarding permadeaths and such.

[GodBeastX]

This change will only be PVP just to note.

[CrimsonTears]

Yeah, I understand the feeling now with no losses. People got confortable with it. I just get kinda wary with something heavier people will see a point in being an ass (be it IC or just OOC with IC reasoning). I might be biased by past experiences, dunno

I know a killer has been arrested (I was there when it happened ). If it starts happening more, with people who are assaulted outside being heard and things investigated, good and bad people being punished the same, etc, it might work. Else we get into the paradox of the small village with a psycho killer that is never caught. And even the best assassins are caught if they aren't on the run and don't know when to stop

[VanillaRose]

I'm well aware of how Raise Dead scrolls are used. Nor did I say that they should be removed; I know people have a need to be alive. But I would argue that the ease of obtaining a way to return life is part of the very problem that we're here discussing - death has no meaning because it's very simple to zone to the temple, buy a scroll, zone back to wherever, presto-chango-alive!

[goodblood]

I'm really glad you brought this up GBX. I think both the perma death for PVP and removal of the challenge rating on examine are excellent ideas. I think the Raise Dead scrolls need to be expensive but they might be at the appropriate price right now (pretty expensive already.)

[Zoberraz]

1500 gold is not easy. ~_~;

I mean, still have trouble affording magical arrows...

[goodblood]

But yeah I'm all for making it difficult to return to life.. I mean PCs should be very afraid of death.

[GodBeastX]

1500 is all? Bah! I thought they were 3000

I got 3000 on chars I hardly do any killing on ^_^

[VanillaRose]

While I can understand that your character may cannot easily afford fifteen-hundred gold, I would wager that there are many characters to whom that amount is nothing but a pittance.

Regardless, and in response to GBX's initial statement, I do not think the price of scrolls needs lowering at all.

[Donegal]

I'm really glad you brought this up GBX. I think both the perma death for PVP and removal of the challenge rating on examine are excellent ideas. I think the Raise Dead scrolls need to be expensive but they might be at the appropriate price right now (pretty expensive already.)

I like for there to be more to gain/lose for PvP, just don't know if permadeath is the way to go. A couple of examples from experience:

1. The Griefer: If a player who just really gets off on pissing other people off and ruining their fun decides to ambush and kill characters, people would get real pissed of real quick. The Griefer may not be able to get away with this sort of behavior for very long, but if you are one of the first couple of people he kills and the character you have spent a month building relationships with is gone, you're probably gonna be in a real bad mood.

2. DM assisted events: What if players of evil characters engage in events like the Drow attack after the festival a few weeks ago? Do they perma-die if killed, do the characters they kill, with the help of mobs, perma-die?

3. Server / RL issues: If the server slows down or my ISP connection starts going haywire and I die before I can run away mean my character is scrap? Saw it happen to a very established player yesterday and it would be a shame if that meant the character was wiped.

4. Logging off the server to avoid Permadeath: I was engaged in a PvP where the other player logged out rather than run to an area exit. If permadeath is instituted I think this would happen all the time, after all what have you got to lose when you are sure you are about to die. It would really ruin the verisimilitude for me.

Anyway, these are just some possible scenarios that could be debated every day with too harsh a system, adding to administrative workloads.

[Zoberraz]

I'm actually opposed to xp loss regarding PvP. Losing to another character is already something of an ego-bruising occurence for some; there's no need to make it as bad as the monsters.

Especially seeing that some characters happen to have reached a level where they can't really get experience from the monsters any longer. I know this is my case. The experience curve no longer has any importance seeing that the only thing really giving any amount of decent xp are the DMs themselves.

So far, I've gained 3500 xp since the experience curve limit was applied. I lost 1500 xp to one death GodBeastX witnessed... which means I have yet 7000 xp to go before my character levels and it's already been a really really reeeaaally long time.

Leave experience penalties out of PvP. I don't want to have metagame worries about fighting for a cause my character holds dear. Taking a long dirt nap until someone raises Maia is one thing, applying a penalty to something that is a finite resource is not.

[GodBeastX]

Okay, before I respond, first, you are dead until someone raises you. You are in your body, someone uses something to bring you back, it's all good. Scroll, spell, etc. You're not wiped from the vault, you're not perm'd and no way back.

I like for there to be more to gain/lose for PvP, just don't know if permadeath is the way to go. A couple of examples from experience:

Permadeath is wrong word. It's Death, you're dead until you are brought back, just like a disease until it's removed.

1. The Griefer: If a player who just really gets off on pissing other people off and ruining their fun decides to ambush and kill characters, people would get real pissed of real quick. The Griefer may not be able to get away with this sort of behavior for very long, but if you are one of the first couple of people he kills and the character you have spent a month building relationships with is gone, you're probably gonna be in a real bad mood.

As I said, your character isn't wiped, it's just laying dead until someone comes along. Griefers are not going to be tolerated anyhow. Since the PW there's only been like, 2 reports of it.

2. DM assisted events: What if players of evil characters engage in events like the Drow attack after the festival a few weeks ago? Do they perma-die if killed, do the characters they kill, with the help of mobs, perma-die?

Have we every left everyone dead after attacks like this? I have an NPC in my arsenal whose sole purpose is healing! And like I said, you are not dead forever, just until someone (that includes DM's) comes to res you.

3. Server / RL issues: If the server slows down or my ISP connection starts going haywire and I die before I can run away mean my character is scrap? Saw it happen to a very established player yesterday and it would be a shame if that meant the character was wiped.

Sometimes we die for OOC reasons. The thing is though, your attacker risks the same. He will also not want to be laying dead, chances are, he will likely not attack so much because he risks more. And no, your character is not wiped, just lays there dead.

4. Logging off the server to avoid Permadeath: I was engaged in a PvP where the other player logged out rather than run to an area exit. If permadeath is instituted I think this would happen all the time, after all what have you got to lose when you are sure you are about to die. It would really ruin the verisimilitude for me.

Report him? If people are logging out you just take a screenshot, DM's set his HP in the database. He logs in dead. It's not that hard

Anyway, these are just some possible scenarios that could be debated every day with too harsh a system, adding to administrative workloads.

Nah, the workload is heavier right now. You just don't see it. If there wasn't a problem with the current system we wouldn't change it. Right now people are picking fights without fear of loss. There's no harm to the killer should he lose except a 3 minute timer, and there's not harm to the victim which means no fear of death for them, but also no fear of hurting the victim's feelings for the attacker.

Victims need to be afraid. They do. They shouldn't just want to run their mouths and risk pissing off people. They shouldn't want to be out in the dark woods at night alone where evils can get them. This is part of the immersion that is missing right now and needs to be there. The fact some peopel are reacting "Shit, this could wind up bad for me" shows it needs to happen. You're supposed to be afraid of it.

[GodBeastX]

I'm actually opposed to xp loss regarding PvP. Losing to another character is already something of an ego-bruising occurence for some; there's no need to make it as bad as the monsters.

Especially seeing that some characters happen to have reached a level where they can't really get experience from the monsters any longer. I know this is my case. The experience curve no longer has any importance seeing that the only thing really giving any amount of decent xp are the DMs themselves.

So far, I've gained 3500 xp since the experience curve limit was applied. I lost 1500 xp to one death GodBeastX witnessed... which means I have yet 7000 xp to go before my character levels and it's already been a really really reeeaaally long time.

Leave experience penalties out of PvP. I don't want to have metagame worries about fighting for a cause my character holds dear. Taking a long dirt nap until someone raises Maia is one thing, applying a penalty to something that is a finite resource is not.

Yeah, no exp loss for PVP. It's not like you did something wrong in your RP every time you die in a fight. The idea is, only that we want killing a PC to mean more than it does.