Update - Max Level

[Venture]

Wow this thread got long.

Heres my two worthless bits....

If I wanted to play a game that did not involve any combat or level advancement, I sure as hell would'nt be playing Nwn2. I mean come on, the game has been unstable and buggy from the start. But I still find it fun, I like playing characters that go kill things, I'm a bad guy I know!

sorry I'm losing my train of thought. I have no problem with a level cap as I get to play maybe 2 hours a week. But to those that condemn people for enjoying the combat oriented side of the game, I have to wonder if maybe the Sims is more your speed?

[dashminus]

*On Topic*

If the developers want to place a level cap in their world, that is their decision. I personally don't think it have any major benefits in the grand scheme of things. But that is just my opinion. And by seeing the reactions here, and thinking about people that might consider playing here, I think over all it is more of a deterrant.

*the rest*

I for one love to role play. I never said I was the best, but I enjoy it. But every time a new restriction gets made here, my desire to come back dwindles. I have lost the desire to play on this Persistant Beta, because I never know how it's going to change the game I love.

Role-playing for EXP is the same as running into a dungeon for EXP. But instead of swinging a sword, you are yapping your jaw. I choose to run around a cave to earn EXP. D&D is my break from real life. Never in my life would I want to Role Play a carpenter in this game, where I spend the day RP building houses or tables. Even if you told me I could go from level 1 to level 20 doing it. But that doesn't make me a bad role player. I created a character that goes on adventures. THAT is his job. Talking around the fire is secondary. But that kind of RP is frowned upon because some people can't grasp why people choose to RP differently than them. I choose to RP mostly an adventurer, and assume my down-time is when I do all the other stuff. They label us all, with no real consideration a "farmer" and/or "grinder". Our characters do in fact how motivations that put them out there all the time. Limitations on the game engine make it harder to explain fully, but they do exist. Piss on anyone who says I am not a "true" roleplayer because I choose to spend more time RPing and fighting than drinking and talking about the weather. I may not fill their idea of a "true roleplayer", but that is opinion only. I think it is crap a person can get even a single level from RP alone. Talking for weeks on end doesn't suddenly give you the ability to perform Improved Whirwind Attack or Sneak Attack 5d6. It shouldn't increase your Hide/Move Silent skills. Oh well....

A GOOD role-player is one who can stay in character to the best of his ability, while maintaining and developing its personality...no matter it is doing. Right? Language/emote skills aside, a person who can stay true to their characters development is a good role-player.

I consider myself a good role-player. I have 23+ years of it under my belt. I tried to develop my character the best I could. I had fun doing it. But I am amazed at how narrow the idea of what Role-Playing is has become. And I attribute it solely to the CRPG and MMO genre.

Sundren is a beautiful server. Design-wise, very nice. I said it when I first started. But having watched the direction it is going, the limitations in the name of "balance", the attitude of some of the admins and regulars, and a general feeling that it caters to too little of a niche group, has me thinking it is time to take a bow. Which is a shame, because my experience could'a/should'a been better.

So long to the only Persistant Beta I have ever known. Though I suspect I will frequent the boards a bit longer.

Yeah yeah yeah, I know, don't let the door hit me on the way out.

[rustediron]

*pats his back on the way out*

EDIT NO2 'spot the difference ':

Talking for weeks on end doesn't suddenly give you the ability to perform Improved Whirwind Attack or Sneak Attack 5d6. It shouldn't increase your Hide/Move Silent skills. Oh well....

I agree with this.
You can't improve anything without practice, and NWN2 being mainly, if not fully, a combat orientated game, I think 'grinding' is a necessary part of roleplay.

Though I do think RP xp is nice to have, people saying "I'll not go to that dungeon because it's dangerous and realistically I would not want to risk my life for the sadistic pleasure of killing a few ogres that keep coming back anyway. Instead I'll engage some random chit-chat, which will somehow make me an uber-powerful super-tank." And then subtly hinting at people being bad roleplayers for not doing what they do is either contradictory or hipocrisy, if not both.

[Poor_Otis]

Yeah, I like to go into dungeons. I like combat. DnD is a combat based game and I sure as shit roleplay when I do engage in dungeon crawling. I role play no matter what I'm doing when I'm logged in. In fact, DnD is 95% combat based. I like a nice balance of RP and classic DnD combat, otherwise I'd be playing a lot more WoW than this game.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and let each other complement everyone else's playstyles (not compliment). No need to leave the server; no need to indict others who like that NWN and DnD's primary focus is combat...no need to overreact.

I would not protest a re-alignment or even a wipe if that's what it takes to re-balance things.

It's just a game folks....in beta...

I really just want OE to fix the freaking crashes...that'd be a nice start...

[GodBeastX]

Don't lump Admins in with people who call you a grinder. I can tell you right now, I don't think there was a single post in this thread that sums up my viewpoint.

If we didn't want people going into dungeons then we wouldn't have made them. However, when we see people trivialize the dungeons, that's when we have to step in. I said this in another post, and I'll say it again. I would love for people to get 100 exp a kill and level at their own pace. But it allows the people that piss me off the most to get power over the people who I love the most. And they always use it. For example, the guy I had to ban who pick pocketted someone's inventory clean while they were AFK. When I checked his character, he was wearing "Exotic Dance Wear" which was a bikini for dancing in a bar. A male halfling. These are the people who grind their eyes out with no concern for anyone.

Why do we have to keep changing these things? Because people keep pushing the limits. I don't want to impose anything on people, but I have to because people make me. I don't know why people equate low experience gains to mean "Well, instead of running the dungeon once, I'll just have to run it ten times in a row!"

Trust me, scripts like this are a headache to implement. I hate doing it, but without people taking responsibility for their own actions, what choice is there? I'm definitely not going to watch someone login, get level 20 in a few days, then beat the crap out of people around a camp fire because they called him stupid. Which incidentally happened in the past, except the guy was more like level 12 in a few days.

[rustediron]

lol, ah the camp fire fights. It's annoying, they don't happen anymore because there are so many people there.

[Machiavelli]

Yeah, I like to go into dungeons. I like combat. DnD is a combat based game and I sure as shit roleplay when I do engage in dungeon crawling. I role play no matter what I'm doing when I'm logged in. In fact, DnD is 95% combat based. I like a nice balance of RP and classic DnD combat, otherwise I'd be playing a lot more WoW than this game.

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and let each other complement everyone else's playstyles (not compliment). No need to leave the server; no need to indict others who like that NWN and DnD's primary focus is combat...no need to overreact.

I would not protest a re-alignment or even a wipe if that's what it takes to re-balance things.

It's just a game folks....in beta...

I really just want OE to fix the freaking crashes...that'd be a nice start...

Gotta say I'm pretty much with Otis here. Especially about the crashes . And even more importantly on the "it's just a game" thing

[Kangleton]

So, Godbeast...

Basically, what you're saying, is that the majority of people are suffering the consequences brough upon by a few bad examples?

While I now understand a little more clearly, why this system is implemented, I have to ask: Are there no alternatives that are... less restricting?

It is always better to present a choice, rather than no choice at all, in my opinion. So, rather than making it IMPOSSIBLE to level at times, why not just make it harder. Remove level restrictions entirely, and instead make harsher death penalties, dungeons that have a chance of spawning profoundly difficult encounters at random, and unique traps that are not consistent, and thus, cannot be avoided safely just because the player knows where it is. Also, further exagerate the need for a Rogue in the party, or at least something with a good skillset.

You could also script a system that creates a "fatigue" effect, lowering the combat stats of a player over time until they rest; and not just "stop to catch their breath", but a real rest at a campsite, where they must spend ten minutes or so. You could also implement a hunger/thirst system that will take it's toll against a player, eventually even killing them if they remain deprived for a long time. What this does against grinding, is forcing the player to take time out of his consistent monster-bashing schedual, so that he won't drop dead half-way through the Sarahan Hills due to starvation or thirst.

There are a lot of things that can be done that make a rapid increase in levels difficult, and risky, rather than impossible. I mean, how many people are going to casually attempt to empty an entire dungeon when they know that they will lose 10% of their gold, and lose 75% of the experience they have gained that level, if they die? How many people will circle grind when their character is about to die of thirst, or fatigue, which increases as they dehydrate themselves while fighting? How many people are going to solo when there are obstacles that specifically require the presence of another class? How many people are going to fail to take grinding seriously, when there is a 5% chance that twice as many Gnolls spawn at the top of a hill?

At least with some of the above conditions, amongst a million other possibilities, players don't have to feel as though they are restricted, or being imposed upon. And yeah, I know not everyone is bothers by it, but many people are, and it doesn't seem to even be necissary, unless I'm ignorant to some unspoken factor. I just think its better to guide players, rather than to force them, or restrict them.

[GodBeastX]

Who says we're not doing that too?

Anyway, we're going to change max level from grinding from 20 to 15. Anyone above 15 when we change it will be bumped down to 15 just once. Then will grow like everyone else.

To get past 15 it will be the same as when people wanted to get to epic levels. We're just lowering the cut off.

[Rhifox]

To sum up my response to a few of the arguments while I haven't been around today:

What I don't understand is the people that assume that just because someone is arguing against people running dungeons, it means that they're spending 24/7 around a campfire talking about the weather or whatever. There is more to Sundren than just dungeons and campfires. If you can't find more, then, well, that's a shame, but it's pointless to accuse someone of, say, just 'drinking and talking about the weather around a campfire all day' just because you don't see them in a dungeon.

As far as the 'it's a combat game so characters should have to fight to gain combat levels'-- fighters and similar classes are the combat-oriented characters. Rogues, Wizards, and so on are not. Not every class or character concept is combat-oriented. And, surprise surprise, some character concepts are rogues and wizards purely so they can avoid or intimidate away combat situations through abilities learned through non-risk practice. Practice does not amount to 'running up to evil monster lair and killing a hundred critters' for everything an individual does in a DnD world. Afterall, plenty of standing armies in the world are built around safe training practice, where real, life and death combat is extremely rare.


As far as the new level cap being 15... sounds fine.

[dashminus]

Don't lump Admins in with people who call you a grinder.

I am not aware of ever being called a "grinder/farmer" by an Admin. My comment was meant to say that attitudes of some Admins and some regulars in general make me "feel", key word being "feel", like it doesn't matter if we are here or not.

However, when we see people trivialize the dungeons, that's when we have to step in.

I do this. Or rather my character trivializes dungeons. Why not? I'm a Halfling! A fantastical, fictional race. I may fear delving into dungeons, fighting goblins if they existed in real life, but not in a fantasy world. I want my character to be someone who DOESN'T fear it. He looks for the fights. He still has fear though. He fears certain races. Certain creatures, and has run from them before.

But it allows the people that piss me off the most to get power over the people who I love the most. And they always use it.

Always? This is such a broad, blanket statement that is not true. Half the people on the server have the power to abuse lower level players but don't, myself included. In fact, let me use the example of the Pickpocket you mentioned. I myself could have easily PickPocketed dozens of lowlevels in my time here, but haven't. This simply not true. There certainly are the few bad apples that exist no matter what, but the tighter you make your grip, the more you start hurting the people that have done nothing.

Why do we have to keep changing these things? Because people keep pushing the limits.

Yes. They do and will always push. There are always those people. I just wonder how long it will go on before people realize that no amount of changes eliminate them. Some changes simply eliminate genuine players.

I don't know why people equate low experience gains to mean "Well, instead of running the dungeon once, I'll just have to run it ten times in a row!"

Again, I do this and I see nothing wrong with it. I have always looked at it from the perspective that due to the limits to the game engine, this could be done. When I make a run through the dungeon and slayed all of the goblins, did I really kill them all? No. There is a whole cavern system that just can't be represented in-game. There is a whole army of goblins that can't be represented. The best we can do right now is place a few spawns and put a timer on them. So when I run through, I am killing the goblins, their reinforcements, then their backup, ad infinitum if necessary. If we can use our imagination to believe in magic and undead, why can't we use our imagination to believe there is more than 12 goblins in a cave.

Trust me, scripts like this are a headache to implement. I hate doing it, but without people taking responsibility for their own actions, what choice is there?

What are you gonna do? Theres always going to be those people. There is a balance. The balance accepts that there will always be trouble-makers, while not constantly causing the earth to shake for the non-trouble-makers. Is a balance really possible? It is a matter of perspective if you ask me.

I'm definitely not going to watch someone login, get level 20 in a few days, then beat the crap out of people around a camp fire because they called him stupid. Which incidentally happened in the past, except the guy was more like level 12 in a few days.

You shouldn't and if you did, you would lose the respect of players. Obvious player abuse demands a ban.

Hey, I am not trying to argue with anyone here. Just my two cents.

(Now, having seen the past couple posts that have appeared as I typed this, all I can say in closing is. I wish it felt more like Dungeons and Dragons and less like Real-Life "playing" here. Just my opinion. I know.)

[Saulus]

I think this has gone on quite long enough, there's been plenty of accusations in this thread which is more than a little disappointing.

In short who knows what's best for Sundren? Well we do, we also have a lot more experience in doing this than most players. You're welcome to think otherwise, but for the sake of argument the DM/Admin is always right.

We'll keep shooting for more productive discussions in the future. One can only hope...

These changes will be imeplemented as of tonight, January 6th, 2008.