Update - Max Level

[Saulus]

Well, really, the Maximum Level thing doesn't accomplish that at all. Someone who still wants to level, and only level, will simply not play while he is at his Maximum Level. The timer continues to go even when you're offline; thats obvious, since I've logged on to find it had already increased. So in that case, people who are only interested in leveling will do just that, and during down time, they might just make another character and grind with that one instead. By the time the second one has caught up, the original will be able to level again. The process continues until there are now multiple high level characters to the same individual player, who still hasn't RP'ed worth a dime.

So... what good does the Maximum Level really do? Grinders will grind, get over it. You can't stop them.

If what you say was actually true, then the RPers would still be around because they actually care about roleplaying and get roleplay XP, while the grinders would go offline. Also people who "grind" don't tend to make a lot of characters and play each one on off times, and even if they did, we could make the maximum level enforced by online playtime. Either way we will put a large dappening on any of this activity.

So why punish and restrict even the people with good intentions, just because of the few with bad, powergaming intentions?

Well, this is just a completely ignorrant statement because no player knows our forethought on any of our decisions. It's the simple fact that progression is running at too fast a pace in certain scenarios, while we are correcting it, it also means this has to take retroactive effect on the already existing characters. Either way people are levelling faster than we had intended, especially with much of our high level content still pending. If this is upsetting, consider the fact that we could easily just wipe the vault instead. We are instead doing something more reasonable.

[Infernal_Havok]

Well, really, the Maximum Level thing doesn't accomplish that at all. Someone who still wants to level, and only level, will simply not play while he is at his Maximum Level. The timer continues to go even when you're offline; thats obvious, since I've logged on to find it had already increased. So in that case, people who are only interested in leveling will do just that, and during down time, they might just make another character and grind with that one instead. By the time the second one has caught up, the original will be able to level again. The process continues until there are now multiple high level characters to the same individual player, who still hasn't RP'ed worth a dime.

So... what good does the Maximum Level really do? Grinders will grind, get over it. You can't stop them. So why punish and restrict even the people with good intentions, just because of the few with bad, powergaming intentions?

You really don't understand Saulus's reply fully. He is not just talking about grinders. He also states in general the beta is not completely ready for epic level characters who may have acheived their progression through enormormous amounts of RP and time on the server. You have to know some of these near epic characters have spent literally 300-400 straight hours of play in a single character per month! Which averages to maybe close to 13-14 hours of constant play a day!!... Multiply 300hours a month by 180xp an hour for just rp xp and you have 54,000xp after the end of one month not ever setting foot in a dungeon or killing a creature.

I am not joking, literally there are over 10 people that I know that are strictly Role players meaning dialogue 90% of the time. Grinding dungeons 8% of the time and generally fooling around OOC 2% of the time. Those individuals also play over 10 hours a day on the server not just for rp xp but for Good RP in general. However, the side effect of it is .. is that they had advanced faster than the server has in terms of Epic level plots, areas, enemies, etc. Grinding is also a result and a by-product because other newer players want to keep up with the jones's in terms of power and what they perceive as "being more useful" at a higher level, for DM events. o.O?

[Rhifox]

The reason everyone spends so much time grinding is:

A) Its part of the game. Nobody buys NWN2 so that they CANT kill anything. And when people kill something, they enjoy a benefit, and enjoy leveling up, or at least progressing TOWARDS something. But when there is no experience, there is no progress, and you are overwhelmed with this unyielding sense that not-so-kindly informs you of the simple truth that you are accomplishing absolutely nothing. People don't buy games for that. It makes people sad.

If the only reason you're killing stuff is so you can see an increase in the exp, then I have to wonder why you're on an RP server instead of an action server. Killing stuff on RP servers should be for the path to a tangible goal, progress for something that has little to do with exp. If people are treating RP as 'a game', then I don't understand why they are RPing to begin with... RP is roleplaying, living a life in the shoes of another character, not playing a video game.

Going to a dungeon should have a very real IC reason. You should know why your character is heading there. If the only answer you can come up with is 'because I want experience points', then you aren't RPing. (I know I'm guilty of this myself in the past, before someone calls me a hypocrite)

B) After spending a week being stuck at the fifth level, which is quite low of a level, for a quite a long time... the individual is excited that they can finally have what they've been deprived of for so long, and so what do they do? They go out and get what they want. To hell with RP, because in that moment, most people are fanatical about that little bit of food thats been hanging over their head while they were otherwise starving. They want the level that has been kept from them, and causing them to click "Show Character Information" every 30 minutes hoping that it was attainable. Level capping promotes grinding. All it does is concentrate it into a short period of time.

... why? Why care? Why does it matter? Why do you have to reach the next goal as soon as possible?

"To hell with RP" - that statement makes me wonder why that kind of player is here at all.

C) Where else are you going to RP? Around a campfire or in a guildhall that isn't entirely supported yet? And if thats what makes you happy, how long will that last? Eventually, as was said earlier, you will exhaust all the philosophical debates that you can endure, and eventually, get bored. You know what is less boring? Killing stuff with other people that also want to kill stuff.

Don't speak for everyone. Some people find killing stuff to be incredibly dull and boring. Personally I find dungeon-crawling to be the epitome of boring things to do. I'd much rather sit around a campfire silent, observing other people as they discuss things amongst themselves, finding out the various rumors, plots, character development, and so on that has been going on.

Running off to go farm a dungeon is something some people do only when there is absolutely nothing else to do.

And the RP is fantastic in these situations! Its great when, after killing a legion of Gnolls, the entire group stumbles upon a campsite to rest, or decided their next destination after looting everything; and the looting itself is even good RP. "Grinding" produces good RP! I swear. The banter back and forth between characters while they're getting smashed, or doing the smashing, can be hilarious. I can think of two great examples that were more fun than anything else I experienced on the server, and they happened while I was trying to shoot up to level six. Sue me.

Mass killing in real life is a traumatizing, hellish, mentally destabilizing activity, where few mentally deranged people enjoy it and most others must desensitize themselves in order to participate in it. When possible, most people prefer to send others to do the dirty work.

In a game, it's treated as an (easy) fun game to partake in, "hey, let's have a spot of tea and then go and slay a few monsters for the day, what do you say, chaps?". For those of us who don't like to think that we're playing a video game while RPing, circle-grinding is extremely unimmersive and unconducive to some characters. And yes, I am aware that some characters are meant to be mass killers and veteran combatants in an IC sense. This comment is purely in regards to the people who don't really have a reason for why their characters mass kill things other than for experience points.

Maximum Level ---> Boredom ---> Quitting!!

For some people, maybe. For grinders, maybe. Personally, max level equates to one thing for me: "Thank God, I don't have to go to dungeons anymore. I can just RP now." Albeit, RP experience rather than max level is what made me stop going to dungeons. If you expect to quit at Max Level then it seems that your only reason for playing was for getting that max level, instead of for getting involved in RP plots, factions, and storylines.

Besides, if people want to grind and do nothing but grind, why not let them? They'll suffer their own consequences for such actions... it's inevitable, its natural, it makes sense.

Then they can go play World of WarCraft, where they can grind all they want, instead of an RP PW on NWN2.

[Infernal_Havok]

Hey Rhifox.. be nice now... XD

[Rhifox]

I am being nice!

[Kangleton]

Rhifox is being nice. Rhifox was very careful to not actually accuse me of anything, and rather, referred with vague statements to "they" and "them", which was done quite respectfully. I wasn't anticipating that, to be honest, so kudos to you. With all the positive things I have to say out of the way, I will now do whatever it is that I do:

Rhifox, your statements were over-analytical, and too critical. You took all the things I said out of context, and carried them to their extremes, which was (for the most part) unnecissary. So now I'll probably do the same thing, if you'll be so patient as to bear with me.

If the only reason you're killing stuff is so you can see an increase in the exp, then I have to wonder why you're on an RP server instead of an action server. Killing stuff on RP servers should be for the path to a tangible goal, progress for something that has little to do with exp. If people are treating RP as 'a game', then I don't understand why they are RPing to begin with... RP is roleplaying, living a life in the shoes of another character, not playing a video game.

Going to a dungeon should have a very real IC reason. You should know why your character is heading there. If the only answer you can come up with is 'because I want experience points', then you aren't RPing. (I know I'm guilty of this myself in the past, before someone calls me a hypocrite)

I completely agree with you, but it is entirely irrelevent. Going to a dengeon SHOULD have a very real IC reason, and you SHOULD know why your character is actually doing such. But the person behind the screen, is the one I was talking about.

Your character surely isn't going only for experience points, since your character is oblivious to what experience points are. Your character is probably going to "patrol" or to "hunt" or to "train" or to "explore", or any combination of the aforementioned, or perhaps even a more creative reason! But you are not your character!

You are still a human being, composed of more than little pretty images on a computer screen, and as such, you have alternative motives that your character isn't aware of. Leveling is one such motive for MOST people. Perhaps that sounds like I'm speaking on behalf of others, but in that case, if I'm wrong and most people DONT care about levels, then why don't we take away levels, and cap everyone at first level.

Leveling is a very real, very enjoyable, very out-of-character part of the game, that will then have very real, very enjoyable, very in-character effects. So, yes, people should not be on an RP server if their only intention is to kill stuff and get experience, but if that is ONE of your intentions, then that is no fault.

... why? Why care? Why does it matter? Why do you have to reach the next goal as soon as possible?

"To hell with RP" - that statement makes me wonder why that kind of player is here at all.

You are taking that comment to the extreme, and it can be done to the opposite as well:

"To hell with killing monsters" - that statement makes me wonder why that kind of player bought NWN2 at all.

Go play a MUD, or whatever it is those things are called where you don't do anything but type and... well, I think thats it.

I had never said that "To hell with RP" was the person's official stance on the server and/or the game. Only that, at the time the individual realizes they can gain a new level (which is a fun part of the game), they will probably find an excuse or opportunity to go find some experience, even if they have to leave that special campfire, and be unable to observe people talking about their character plots for a while. I've seen countless people do it, and I've been here, like, two weeks? Not long. I'm not speaking on anyone's behalf, I am only recounting the actions of others.

Mass killing in real life is a traumatizing, hellish, mentally destabilizing activity, where few mentally deranged people enjoy it and most others must desensitize themselves in order to participate in it. When possible, most people prefer to send others to do the dirty work.

In a game, it's treated as an (easy) fun game to partake in, "hey, let's have a spot of tea and then go and slay a few monsters for the day, what do you say, chaps?". For those of us who don't like to think that we're playing a video game while RPing, circle-grinding is extremely unimmersive and unconducive to some characters. And yes, I am aware that some characters are meant to be mass killers and veteran combatants in an IC sense. This comment is purely in regards to the people who don't really have a reason for why their characters mass kill things other than for experience points.

I have no objection to this comment really. I agree that there always has to be an IC reason for what your character is doing. But, you really can't expect killing to be such a traumatic thing in a setting where resurection is available, people know what happens after death, magic exists, and killing is so common. It shouldn't be an entirely passive experience, but you cannot compare it to real life.

For some people, maybe. For grinders, maybe. Personally, max level equates to one thing for me: "Thank God, I don't have to go to dungeons anymore. I can just RP now." Albeit, RP experience rather than max level is what made me stop going to dungeons. If you expect to quit at Max Level then it seems that your only reason for playing was for getting that max level, instead of for getting involved in RP plots, factions, and storylines.

If achieving your maximum level means "Thank God, I don't have to go to dungeons anymore" then... well, why did you go in the first place? You were never obligated. I don't even understand why you said that. And the reason for just logging off after achieving maximum level, is that you become very limited in what you are able to do. Of course you can go RP, thats a wonderful option, and its obviously what the server is for! But, think of it like this...

Hypothetically, there is some guy who plays everyday of the week, for five to ten hours a day. I don't know how true of an example this is, but whatever.

This person loves to RP, is a good RP'er, and is an all-around nice guy. However, at some points in the day, there will be no people online that his character would logically assosciate with; or perhaps the people are out killing stuff, or are in an area that this perticular character doesn't have access to. What does he do then?

Or, if he has been RP'ing for nine straight hours, his eyes are now bleeding, and his fingers are raw and hurt from typing, maybe he wants to take a break from it and go grind for a bit, only having to type a few emotes once in a while. However, if he is at his maximum level, this is not an option. It accomplishes nothing, and he stands to LOSE experience with no ability to GAIN it, by taking this risk.

Grinding/Killing/Hunting/Whatever is just a good option to have, when you want to have it. But maximum level takes away that freedom, and that player who has tirelessly been RP'ing the whole time, will be a little irritated that he is suffering for absolutely no fault of his own.

I'll just stop here, since it's really, really late. Or, early, actually... and I've probably already said something stupid as it is.

But just to make it clear, I don't really encourage grinding. I just hate maximum levels. There are better alternatives, anyways.

[Saulus]

Grinding/Killing/Hunting/Whatever is just a good option to have, when you want to have it. But maximum level takes away that freedom, and that player who has tirelessly been RP'ing the whole time, will be a little irritated that he is suffering for absolutely no fault of his own.

Grinding isn't a freedom, it's something we specifically have a rule against, it ties into farming.

"Tirelessly RPing" hmm so because he/she is RPing it allows them to violate one of our rules? I don't think so... But that isn't what this is really about, this change isn't about grinding so much as balance.

The maximum level isn't going anywhere so there's no use getting all bothered by it. It's not like you're being forced to play.

[Kangleton]

It isn't breaking one of your rules, as I described it. Going out to kill monsters, for an IC reason, while emoting, is legal.

[Venture]

ive never gotten anywhere near the level cap personally, lower it all you want.

[Sammael]

If the only reason you're killing stuff is so you can see an increase in the exp, then I have to wonder why you're on an RP server instead of an action server. Killing stuff on RP servers should be for the path to a tangible goal, progress for something that has little to do with exp. If people are treating RP as 'a game', then I don't understand why they are RPing to begin with... RP is roleplaying, living a life in the shoes of another character, not playing a video game.

Going to a dungeon should have a very real IC reason. You should know why your character is heading there. If the only answer you can come up with is 'because I want experience points', then you aren't RPing. (I know I'm guilty of this myself in the past, before someone calls me a hypocrite)

... why? Why care? Why does it matter? Why do you have to reach the next goal as soon as possible?

"To hell with RP" - that statement makes me wonder why that kind of player is here at all.


Don't speak for everyone. Some people find killing stuff to be incredibly dull and boring. Personally I find dungeon-crawling to be the epitome of boring things to do. I'd much rather sit around a campfire silent, observing other people as they discuss things amongst themselves, finding out the various rumors, plots, character development, and so on that has been going on.

Running off to go farm a dungeon is something some people do only when there is absolutely nothing else to do.

Mass killing in real life is a traumatizing, hellish, mentally destabilizing activity, where few mentally deranged people enjoy it and most others must desensitize themselves in order to participate in it. When possible, most people prefer to send others to do the dirty work.

In a game, it's treated as an (easy) fun game to partake in, "hey, let's have a spot of tea and then go and slay a few monsters for the day, what do you say, chaps?". For those of us who don't like to think that we're playing a video game while RPing, circle-grinding is extremely unimmersive and unconducive to some characters. And yes, I am aware that some characters are meant to be mass killers and veteran combatants in an IC sense. This comment is purely in regards to the people who don't really have a reason for why their characters mass kill things other than for experience points.

For some people, maybe. For grinders, maybe. Personally, max level equates to one thing for me: "Thank God, I don't have to go to dungeons anymore. I can just RP now." Albeit, RP experience rather than max level is what made me stop going to dungeons. If you expect to quit at Max Level then it seems that your only reason for playing was for getting that max level, instead of for getting involved in RP plots, factions, and storylines.


Then they can go play World of WarCraft, where they can grind all they want, instead of an RP PW on NWN2.

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I'd be interested to know: why DO you think people who go around 'grinding' on an RP server do so?

[Maevan2]

I don't mind a system that restricts the levels. But i would prefer some system where you still can get XP when you are above desired level but at a very reduced rate. Maybe something like getting only 1/2, 1/3,... of the XP for each level you are above your "target" level. Or something reducing the XP per kill by 10, 20,.. for each level. This should slow down people and make mindless grinding less appealing without giving them the feeling that everything they do is completely useless.

[Wyvern76]

I don't have anything against the maximum level persay. I mean I was on a server with a token system where you could literally never level again. Guess what. People still played there characters, still plotted, still RPed. Tokens where given out to characters who impacted the PW the most. More impact more level tokens. Not arguing for this system.

Just from being well under the level limit one day, and feeling like a good little player. Then suddenly having my main char 5 levels over the Max, made me feel like I was doing something wrong and being slapped.

I guess that's part of not having any thing else to do right now and I can play 10 hours a day. But I still feel like I'm being punished or at least accused of something.

Funny thing is, (and I know many won't believe me) I felt that she was at a high enough level (12), and her renown and or position in the community should grow before she gains any more levels. Just feel like I'm doing something wrong being so above my Max.

I am in the camp of Players that believe if a char hasn't "joined" in the IC community and plots and makes a difference; Then what the Muck are they doing reading Impossible?

These balance things on PWs are a real gordian knot, and I sympathize with the Staff. Tweak away.

[Machiavelli]

Going to a dungeon should have a very real IC reason. You should know why your character is heading there. If the only answer you can come up with is 'because I want experience points', then you aren't RPing. (I know I'm guilty of this myself in the past, before someone calls me a hypocrite).

Strange statement... Seems to translate roughtly as: "Don't do it, but I did it, and please don't accuse me of hypocrisy."

Personally, max level equates to one thing for me: "Thank God, I don't have to go to dungeons anymore. I can just RP now."

So you're saying that people should be more concerned with RP than levels and experience, but only now that you are level 20 do you no longer feel the pressure to obtain more lvlzorz?

Those two things are admissions to exactly the behaviour you're condemning so stridently in others Rhifox. Maybe don't go so hard on people eh?

[Rhifox]

I'd rather not get into this debate with you again, Mal, but whatever...

Strange statement... Seems to translate roughtly as: "Don't do it, but I did it, and please don't accuse me of hypocrisy."

No, you misunderstand me.

I'm saying that I think it's WRONG to go to dungeons only because you want the experience points, but that I HAVE, and that I believe it is WRONG that I have, but that I have done so anyways. I prefer not to, but that does not mean I haven't in the past. Now that RP experience is in, I personally hardly ever go to dungeons now... I did in the past because, back then, the only way to get experience aside from rare and slow pieces of DM exp was to grind dungeons, and my character almost never has an IC reason to go to them, leaving my only reason on going being because I wanted exp, and I did not like that one bit.

I am not saying it is right that I did it. I'm admitting that I have done it, but I don't like that I have. If RP experience had existed when I first started on the server, then I would not have done it.

So you're saying that people should be more concerned with RP than levels and experience, but only now that you are level 20 do you no longer feel the pressure to obtain more lvlzorz?

Incorrect. I would like to remind you Mal that I have obtained levels 14-19 almost entirely through RP and DM experience. I was not 'racing to the finish' as it were, and personally was rather upset that Veritas was added because I knew it would result in people mass grinding it so they could hit 20. Did I grind from 3-14 through grinding? Yes, I did (but even then, it came in spurts, rather than mass circle grinding. I have never once come close to meeting my level cap). That was because RP experience did not exist back then and the only worthwhile way of advancing was through grinding. Now that it is entirely possible to level purely through RP at a reasonable pace, there is no necessity to going to dungeons any longer unless you have an IC reason to.


Stop trying to state in every thread this argument comes up in that I'm saying it was okay that I did it but not okay that anyone else does. I do not agree with my having done it and if I had any choice in the matter (which I did not have in the past, but DO have now because of RP experience) I wouldn't have done it. Forgive me for having a character that isn't fit for dungeon-crawling, sorry. I don't just condemn what others do, I condemn what I did as well, which is part of the reason I am vehemently against it because I feel it is unreasonable that some characters feel FORCED into doing it, as I did. It's why I'm a staunch supporter of RP experience and have since stopped grinding dungeons except on very rare occurrences due to the fact that I no longer find it necessary.

Take the percentages that someone else stated before. I am that RPer that spends 90% of the time RPing, 8% of the time grinding, and 2% of the time just OOCly fooling around. With RP experience, this is a fine way to advance and this is how I now spend my time completely. Prior to RP experience, I had to increase my time grinding to roughly 30% and decrease my time chat-RPing to 60%. Spending so much time in dungeons is not something I enjoyed, agreed with, had no IC reason to do, and I hated doing vehemently, but did because I felt I had little choice. You seem to think, then, I should have been fine with staying at low levels... but then I say this: Why should I be penalized, level-wise, for RPing, while people who are grinding and DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A REALISTIC FEAR OF DEATH are allowed to become supremely powerful without a care in the world? If dying in a dungeon resulted in permadeath, then I would say, go ahead, dungeons can be the fastest method to power. But when going to a dungeon is treated as a game, as something people do for pastime that has no personal safety risk whatsoever, then there is no reason advancement should be any quicker than for regular RPing elsewhere. Risk versus reward. If there is no risk to dungeon crawling, then there is no reason the reward should be any greater than from engaging in other non-risk situations.

There's also my age-old point that non-combat characters cannot learn their non-combat skills without engaging in combat (for instance, without RP experience, for a rogue to be capable of going through a dungeon without fighting anything, in complete stealth as is their class role, they must have gained levels, through combat, which completely removes the point of a stealthy character. A cooped-up wizard cannot be cooped up in his tower and still be a cooped-up crotchety old wizard without gaining levels through combat, he cannot be a bookworm since levels can only be gained by combat, not from reading books)

[Rhifox]

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I'd be interested to know: why DO you think people who go around 'grinding' on an RP server do so?

Because, for one, many people enjoy it--afterall, that's why many people play videogames, so they can get the rush of graphical violence and kill stuff without any risk to themselves. It's why games like Half Life 2 (which I feel was an incredibly boring and dull game) are considered great games, because of their amount of constant and well done violent gameplay. People on RP servers are no different, most like combat just as much as anyone else and don't mind if it's not entirely realistic that their character has no fear of it, because, hey, guess what, they can't really die unless they want to. It's also a chance to play the hero of the story.

Others simply like the idea of exploring, finding new things, getting new loot, all the while interacting with other people. This kind of sentiment can be both IC and OOC.

Others, feel it is the only way to advance their character. As I have said, even the most cowardly thief cannot be better at stealth without going through dungeons in the Dungeons and Dragons system. Thankfully, RP experience gives these players a choice in the matter.