Update - Max Level

[undeadsteak]

Heh, as soon as the guilds and the such get ago, I'm sure there'll be more things to do then campfire talk. And I believe the main plot for sundren hasnt even started yet. The DMs are still setting everything up, still making Sundren, and they're working on guilds. Thats why its a beta. As for DMs trying to promote guilds, some of us have already gotten into organizations like Banites or Red Wizards. I'm sure as soon as they're done with other stuff like making maps and finishing the quest system, we'll have more focus on guild stuff.

[Machiavelli]

Leveling was waaayyy slower on the old xp curve. The way it gave more xp if you were below the curve, less xp if you were above it was cool. People with less playtime could still pretty much keep up, and not have to kill that many monsters, and even those who liked to go out and kill stuff ended up suffering from the diminishing returns on their xp.

Leveling does seem to be happening pretty quick, and that does tend to reduce rp possibilities I reckon! And I had no idea people had got to level 20 =O

[Scavar]

About RP, on who I consider to be my main, I happen accross other peoples plots all the time...I've seen some scary things. But on top of that I RP someone who goes around doing art. I even have a post up with a list of some of my work.

He also makes maps, I've gotten paid for doing the stuff, and they don't even exist as in game items. Sitting around the fire talking, is RP, whether you agree or not depends on your point of view. As far as I am concerned, I'm not acting like myself when I'm sitting around the fire talking about dragons and such so it's RP to me.


It DOES get boring, but like has been said it is a beta still so live with it, or try making your own deal IC. Plenty of people seem to be willing to just accept that I am doing art and they are getting it.

[Raksha]

On the entire question of "what is RP", this is a rather simple one in my opinion. Sundren is an in-character server. No matter whether you're getting a bowl of Mystery Stew at the Trading House or idly hoping not to get rained on as you talk about dragon sex at the Crossroads or deep in the Viridale by yourself, every action you take is in-character (ideally) and therefore you are role-playing all the time. If you grind, you probably have an in-character reason, even though it may not be the most thoroughly constructed. I'll be the first to admit that many times I have gone "meh, not much happening, let's go make a routine patrol."

On readjusting the level curve, I think the intent -was- for people to be able to level faster if they really felt like it, and thus they have. It's a delicate balancing act, and one that will eventually end in several characters at or around level 20 at all times, and quite a few high-levels if they've got the playtime and willingness to stick with the server. The alternative for level controls, such as token systems... bleh. Creates an enormous horde of problems.

On the factions, they're in place, and you can join them. They're just not really supported with goodies, or quest, or all that much dedicated DM attention. You'll just have to do most of the work. But they are there, and if someone out there is really hot to join, say, the Red Blades... I think TheId would be delerious with happiness

Poor Red Blades. No one loves you... here, Vaer, have a candy. Your time will soon come.

[Machiavelli]

Hmm, joining factions...

*keeps making characters totally unsuitable for joining any of them*

I've gotta agree with Rasha on the token system (eek!). Something automated is good, and the devs are going to balance it however they see fit (which is how it should be, it's their project after all).

[Darius_Rechtak]

What if

I like the level cap but i do believe dungeons should be tougher.. many people dont play tabletop so ill tell you a party of 4 characters can dispatch a moster more powerful than them no problem... the true key to a challange is numbers. or non-creature... make spawns larger in number... particularly with goblins .. goblins should always come in large numbers.. this way rogues cant just spam sneak or thery will get swarmed. etc... fighters will get flanked mages will get circle-jerked.... X-D anyway and noncreature, traps, traps with high dc's or ones that are harder to see.... also fun are skill-nessecities.. needing to jump over a gap.. or fall into another area of the dungeon and take damage via tumble.. etc..or str or dex checks to push doors or cross a bridge.. this way lets say you have a fighter rogue and mage .... they need to get past the huge stone door... fighter needs to open it cause hes the only one with enough muscle... then there is a rope bridge... of only one rope... have a conversation item wher you make a dex check if you suceed, he mkaes it across, then pulls a lever that teleports the party over or makes a bridge. then you come to a door with a riddle and the mage can solve it or something ... just my input... as for factions i say player-created is the way to go

[Saulus]

I like the level cap but i do believe dungeons should be tougher.. many people dont play tabletop so ill tell you a party of 4 characters can dispatch a moster more powerful than them no problem... the true key to a challange is numbers. or non-creature... make spawns larger in number... particularly with goblins .. goblins should always come in large numbers.. this way rogues cant just spam sneak or thery will get swarmed. etc... fighters will get flanked mages will get circle-jerked.... X-D anyway and noncreature, traps, traps with high dc's or ones that are harder to see.... also fun are skill-nessecities.. needing to jump over a gap.. or fall into another area of the dungeon and take damage via tumble.. etc..or str or dex checks to push doors or cross a bridge.. this way lets say you have a fighter rogue and mage .... they need to get past the huge stone door... fighter needs to open it cause hes the only one with enough muscle... then there is a rope bridge... of only one rope... have a conversation item wher you make a dex check if you suceed, he mkaes it across, then pulls a lever that teleports the party over or makes a bridge. then you come to a door with a riddle and the mage can solve it or something ... just my input... as for factions i say player-created is the way to go

Please use paragraphs if you want people to read what you're saying. My eyes hurt.

[Xanderleo]

I really don't consider chatting about the camp fire role-play. Sorry. To me that is as meaningful as.... well a random chat room on the web. People BSing around a campfire: doesn't change anything, move a plot forward, has no effect at all!

I admit. I can't stand camp fire chit chat. I search every day for meaningful RP with concequences and rewards

I can't believe I just read that being in character and interacting with other people isn't "RP".

If you think plots don't move forward and characters don't grow from speaking to one another then I don't know what to tell you.

I'll end my post here, because anything else I had to say isn't very nice.

[Sammael]

My biggest issue I have is, I get a plot in mind, I look at who is available to take part in it. And I see the players that I think would be good in it, out grinding. Then I follow them awhile, waiting for them to finish, and they just rush out to the next dungeon, so I end up running the stuff for the people who tend to avoid grinding. It's not that I favor anyone, it's that they are the ones who make themselves available.

Perhaps one of the reasons people rush around grinding rather than hang around for DMs to start plots is that, as far as I can tell, DM xp rewards tend to be small and hard to come by. I haven't been in many events, but when I have I've rped for ages (enjoying it a lot of course) but ended up with all of, say, 500xp at the end of it. This seems especially unfortunate if I consider things like (for e.g.) how much Sam might learn about his Art from watching the Hands teleport all over the place and lob spells around. On the other hand, I can trundle around a dungeon with a party rping on the way, and get some actual xp for it.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong and I've just been missing out on all that DM xp others get, due to dungeon runs :shrug:

[Kangleton]

The reason everyone spends so much time grinding is:

A) Its part of the game. Nobody buys NWN2 so that they CANT kill anything. And when people kill something, they enjoy a benefit, and enjoy leveling up, or at least progressing TOWARDS something. But when there is no experience, there is no progress, and you are overwhelmed with this unyielding sense that not-so-kindly informs you of the simple truth that you are accomplishing absolutely nothing. People don't buy games for that. It makes people sad.

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B) After spending a week being stuck at the fifth level, which is quite low of a level, for a quite a long time... the individual is excited that they can finally have what they've been deprived of for so long, and so what do they do? They go out and get what they want. To hell with RP, because in that moment, most people are fanatical about that little bit of food thats been hanging over their head while they were otherwise starving. They want the level that has been kept from them, and causing them to click "Show Character Information" every 30 minutes hoping that it was attainable. Level capping promotes grinding. All it does is concentrate it into a short period of time.

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C) Where else are you going to RP? Around a campfire or in a guildhall that isn't entirely supported yet? And if thats what makes you happy, how long will that last? Eventually, as was said earlier, you will exhaust all the philosophical debates that you can endure, and eventually, get bored. You know what is less boring? Killing stuff with other people that also want to kill stuff. And the RP is fantastic in these situations! Its great when, after killing a legion of Gnolls, the entire group stumbles upon a campsite to rest, or decided their next destination after looting everything; and the looting itself is even good RP. "Grinding" produces good RP! I swear. The banter back and forth between characters while they're getting smashed, or doing the smashing, can be hilarious. I can think of two great examples that were more fun than anything else I experienced on the server, and they happened while I was trying to shoot up to level six. Sue me.

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D) Sometimes, there is nothing else to do. When you're bored of the campfire, bored of the guildhall that doesn't really do anything, and bored of talking about Dragon Sex... what does that leave you to do? Kill stuff. But even that isn't appealing unless you're getting something out of it; progress. It makes people overflow with glee. I happen to like glee. I like progress. But that progress is entirely beyond reach, no matter what you do, if you are at your Maximum Level. So what happens then, if you are at your Maximum Level, you are bored out of your mind, and you want something to do? I don't know about a lot of other people, but I know quite a few that would just sign off, and give up for the time. Do you know what that means? I'm going to make a diagram to show you:

Maximum Level ---> Boredom ---> Quitting!!

I mean, what would YOU do if you were so bored that you were even willing to go to this dreadful campfire you all fear, and then, NOBODY WAS THERE!?!? You'd have nothing to do really, at all, other than go stab something with something else, probably a sword. But you when then come to the realization that such actions mean nothing when, after killing the Ogre Chieftain, you get 0XP. Horray for that.

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Conclusively, killing stuff is part of the game; people like it. It produces good RP, and diverse RP opportunities, and sometimes, there is nothing else to do; and putting a limit on the level one can achieve, so often, and for such long amounts of time, promotes grinding when the opportunity actually arises. Maximum Level, really, doesn't work. It is restricting to the point where it can make things less fun than they otherwise could have been, and it doesn't even really accomplish it's entire purpose.

Besides, if people want to grind and do nothing but grind, why not let them? They'll suffer their own consequences for such actions... it's inevitable, its natural, it makes sense. Maximum Level, does not.

Pat yourself on the back if you just read all of that.

[rustediron]

*pats himself on the back*
I agree with most of that, actually.
Grinding when you have people along with you can be very fun - and whatever people might claim, it does offer plenty of rp opportunities.

[Leevoth]

I like progress. But that progress is entirely beyond reach, no matter what you do, if you are at your Maximum Level.

I agree completely with EVERYTHING Kangleton said, except this part. *points upward*

I waited around so long fishing, and Rping and junk I ended up getting a level from the RP exp...which would have entailed I'd have to wait around even longer before I could fight to gain exp. I found myself fighting for gold and loot, which is a lot worse than fighting for gold, loot and exp.

[joker]

I am currently above my max level and am only getting RP exp. This has not stopped me from venturing forth with companions and helping them out. I still earn the RP exp. and can gather loot. Then there is the added benefit of getting to kill the goblins that I hate so much.

[Infernal_Havok]

Well fighting is very essential part of the game, in which I agree very much with... But as far as being bored and making yourselves commit to "Limited RP options" such as campfire chats or tavern gossip... Why not promote your story and others? Build "Real" relationships between characters. DM's do this all the time with npc's and a few players do this as well.. They take INITIATIVE to start player made events and player made content amongst themselves and their group. They try to promote CHARACTER GROWTH, growth in which you as a living being experience nearly everday by your interaction with others.

As you can see there is more to this game than just kill, loot, xp, leveling, uberness... You have the chance to build depth in your character, portray its wants, needs, motivations, ambitions, dreams, etc... You also have the power to help other players realize those same things within their characters though IC interaction. This to me is what RP is about no matter if it is in a dungeon, campfire, masoleum, or whatever hole you find yourselves in. Take the time to research your character make them multi dimensional, observe other people playing their characters and think of ways they can or you can be incorporated in the overall story.

A story, I guess that is how I think of what we should be doing as players who enjoy role playing... We are all characters with their stories take the time to let them be known. I think this is why the Devs decided to cap levels, to remind players that there is just alot more to do than to quickly level up.

[Kangleton]

Well, really, the Maximum Level thing doesn't accomplish that at all. Someone who still wants to level, and only level, will simply not play while he is at his Maximum Level. The timer continues to go even when you're offline; thats obvious, since I've logged on to find it had already increased. So in that case, people who are only interested in leveling will do just that, and during down time, they might just make another character and grind with that one instead. By the time the second one has caught up, the original will be able to level again. The process continues until there are now multiple high level characters to the same individual player, who still hasn't RP'ed worth a dime.

So... what good does the Maximum Level really do? Grinders will grind, get over it. You can't stop them. So why punish and restrict even the people with good intentions, just because of the few with bad, powergaming intentions?