A Sundren Discussion

[Root]

My point was nothing more than if someone knocks on your office door and tells you they have a problem with how something is, you don't make jokes about such and laugh them out of it.

I bet that would make you feel terrible, and the above is not even true.

Actually, I'm strange in that I'm cool with being hit with things like that. An honest opinion with a bit of the standard sugar-coating is far better than silence or faked ass-kissing, and therefore tends to be what I give and recieve.

IMO? Best thing that can be done is to elevate more people to server-celebrity status. r3 can't be the only good, active RPer on the server. If favouritism, plot focus, and DM love is centered on one person, it'll be a lot more obvious and generate a lot more ire then if it's spread across five or ten people at any given time, with those people getting switched out as DM favourites whenever an old one falls inactive. Don't need any more DM's to do that, just need to spread the effort about.

That way, the position of server celebrity isn't reserved for one person who's in the spot and is unshiftable thanks to being in the right place at the right time, and becomes something actually attainable by even an unlucky player who puts the time and effort in.

It's likely this already happens, but the perception is obviously that it's all one sided (see: This thread.) Also, the people I can think of that are close to being elevated to this level essentially revolve around Dain to start with.

Big up other people to Dain's level, show that the servers cast is part of the Sundren Show, not a walkon in the Dain Tornbrook Experience.

[Satoshi]

I'm in that area where I feel that I'm getting a lot of attention on one of my characters because he's one of the only really active wizards, as well as a member of the Hands. I've been through several DM events that either were tailored for me, or that came to me because of my character's specialty or position. The other day, another one was brought to me but I felt like I shouldn't take it because I was already tied in to three other events at the same time - but, because the player needed a hook, to get their own event going, I also didn't want to say 'no'.

What do?

[Cornuto]

My point was nothing more than if someone knocks on your office door and tells you they have a problem with how something is, you don't make jokes about such and laugh them out of it.

There's nothing wrong with joking around with someone while you work toward a solution or discuss an issue. If your point is that its wrong to mock someone who comes to you with a problem then I completely agree with you, but that's not what's happening here (at least to my eyes.) R3 playfully stroking his own ego was groan-worthy, but it wasn't dismissive of TPK or his concerns.

This is an game. I think joking around isn't uncalled for. I would rather see people taking NWN2 with too little seriousness than too much --although treating it just-right is vastly preferred over either of the above options.

I can also say from experience that the people who take this game waaaaay too seriously are usually the least fun people to DM for, and consequentially get less DM attention. Please don't take the previous sentence as being directed at anyone in this thread or even currently on this server.

[Standur]

IMO? Best thing that can be done is to elevate more people to server-celebrity status. r3 can't be the only good, active RPer on the server. If favouritism, plot focus, and DM love is centered on one person, it'll be a lot more obvious and generate a lot more ire then if it's spread across five or ten people at any given time, with those people getting switched out as DM favourites whenever an old one falls inactive. Don't need any more DM's to do that, just need to spread the effort about..

There are pleanty of goodly active RPer's on the server and quite a few of us have had DM love-in's lately. Of late Dain has been more like the celebrity guest making an appearance on a hit TV show. There are a lot of ooh's and aww's and evereyone notices him but the show does not revolve around him. R3 may have something cooking for Dain but if he does is has been out of the spotlight.

Congrats on the celebrity status by the way R3.

It's likely this already happens, but the perception is obviously that it's all one sided (see: This thread.) Also, the people I can think of that are close to being elevated to this level essentially revolve around Dain to start with..

Perception is what it is but it is not necessarily reality.

Big up other people to Dain's level, show that the servers cast is part of the Sundren Show, not a walkon in the Dain Tornbrook Experience.

The goodly side of the Sundren Show from my perspective since last August:

Emiliana Blackwell & a lot of others - Defending the Sundren city gates against the Bloodmaim (no Dain)
Minael - Being knighted (no Dain)
Multiple people - The undead portals (some Dain)
Ryland, Eirimil, Presea, Faucon & Bren - The sword and shadows (Perhaps this was a spinoff from a one off Dain involved event)
Presea & Faucon - Wedding (Dain in a guest appearance)
Kyle Rendell - A Blackwood faction plot (no Dain)

I could count on one hand the number of times Dain was involved in any of these events. I am sure Dain could easily have been involved in other things but R3 has not been riding in with Dain and bailing everyone else out.

[GodBeastX]

Oh snap, discussion still going! Pages added to thread! People better run for the hills!

It's me again. Somebody cut the grass and found the snakes slithering about and every snake found was me. So I feel the need to defend myself! You ever been bit by a GBX python? Well, you're about to be!

Just kidding...

Fairness. That's the idea of socialism and communism right? Community over singularity? It's a pipe dream that even crowds of MMO developers can't seem to get right. From factions, to classes, to wealth, to gear, to online time. There's never been a perfect formula to date, and NWN has one thing on top of that where attention and dynamic content gets thrown into the mix.

Honestly, we're doing the best we can. Seriously we are. The DM forums go back aaaaaages of all the attempts DMs have made to get things right, and all the times DMs and Admins have helped each other and corrected each other to do it. The help forums has Hundreds or made thousands of posts where players are pinging us for aid, and we do our best.

These metrics which are clearly visible to us are not visible to the player base and that's part of what I meant by point-of-view that players have versus the reality when talking about favoritism.

Application to me?

I have 1-5% of my stories I ever told targeted at a specific person. And even rarer is it targeted at a single person again in the future.

I tend to target a Sundren as a whole or a specific faction. Usually the targeting of a single person comes about because that person showed an interest in the start up of the plot.

An example of a targeted plot is when I ran a holy avenger plot for Paladins. Dain was present in that, I believe. Aeria, another paladin was present as well. And I think there was a third paladin. I sent out a public forum call for paladins to get their butts online and run this mug. More people got involved than the paladins and I'd like to think everybody came out happy with rewards involved. Some got buku experience. I think a lowbie even got 2 levels from the event due to how damn overwhelming the whole thing was.

Overall my plots are generic. I come up with a situation, how I am going to initiate it. Background info on the situation should players dig into it. Then, I let players take control. I don't believe in railroad plots where I have a clearly defined end. I have ideas of how things COULD end, but never a set destination. I like players to have freedom to decide where things are going. Some players may be aware of this because they send me tells with "What do you want me to do here?" and I -always- reply the same "Whatever your character would do here!" Which usually follows up with people going "Can I do XYZ?" and I go "SURE!"

You control any event I run, period. I'm a referee and filler of what happens. You want to dive into a burning building (Kasso), then that's up to you! You want to write off an NPC as a blithering idiot? Hey, that's all you! That's why I said "Is it that we are targetting that player or are they the one who keeps showing up for events and involving themselves?"

People have a different view on involvement. Some think it's rude to show up to an event in progress or that other people are involved in. Others will go out of their way to be present. Me? I just find over so many people difficult to manage as a DM and I think it becomes unfair for those involved if they can't get the attention they deserve because tons of people are stepping on each other for the DM's eye. That's the only reason I might try to hide an event, player count involved. Still, I manage if tons of people show up. It's not in me to ever say "Go away!" because I know I would be excited to attend

However, despite all that above, notice one central message to everything I said. Players have their own responsibility in this whole endeavor. I have a saying, "You get what you put into a Roleplay community." If you go out of your way to make yourself paramount you will likely be paramount and very swiftly. You can say "But my character doesn't want to be paramount." well, it'll end up that way for your character just as swiftly. Take a little responsibility, stories are just as much players as it is DMs and even more so.

As for boots that are ugly. I'm a whimsical person and I give out item rewards like hotcakes based on what I notice about a character. If I look at a player's gear in an event and notice they got crap gear for their level, then guess what they might get for an event reward? If I see a player with ugly boots or a bad cape or whatever, I'll likely give them a special one! If I see someone with gear that doesn't give away their mentality or affiliations, I might offer to make them something.

The server rule is players can't request items from DMs. That's the rule. People make requests to me when I'm online all the time, despite this rule. Some are people I consider myself an internet buddy with. They all get the same answer, "No." Some people in this very thread posting have asked for items from me and I said "No." And some have not asked and gotten items. There is no favoritism in me where rewards come in. You are all equal in my eyes when I give. And I like it that way. But I REALLY love to give someone one item that stands out for them, and levels don't matter. I think it gives people a warm feeling when they view their equipment and I like people to have that.

As for getting silly with replies, I figured we've all been in the hellhole Sundren long enough where someone can smile in threads like this and people won't get bent out of shape. Come on, we're all homies and whatever faction we're in, we're still on the same team, and that team is "Let's have fun online." So how about it?

Can we all just have fun?

If you guys got serious concerns, pop me a PM. People have done it in the past and I've gone out of my way to help them to the best of my ability. So let's not get threads started pointing fingers at each other. It's like watching my two daughters fight. Love 'em both and I hate to see them do that to each other.

[Chiangtao]

A theme I'm noticing in some of the evidence is the attention given to the good side. For one-off events, I think the DMs are very responsive and help any side who has a request. The plots however tend to deeply involve the Triad + Legion vs. whatever. Yes, other groups get involved, but not to the same extent usually.

It's to be expected though. The name of the server is "Sundren." And, lengthy plots will be conflict against Sundren. Who defends it? See the above.

What is tricky is, in D&D, power only ever increases. It doesn't decrease. Someone who gets big rewards gets to keep them forever - not temporarily. With plots heavily involving long time players, they only get more and more powerful. And I think that leads to the perception of them getting special attention. It's just the nature of the game.

Anyway, I hear the "haves" tossing around terms like "earned," and the "have-nots" tossing around terms like "favored." I think really, based on the evidence people are writing here, it's simply tenure and server focus of plots. There's no intent here to do otherwise, and I trust fully that the DM staff evaluates these things on a regular basis.

[Vaelek]

The server rule is players can't request items from DMs. That's the rule. People make requests to me when I'm online all the time, despite this rule. They all get the same answer, "No."

I believe I have tried his patience on this more than any other player, requesting my long-awaited vorpal sword everytime GBX or Saulus logs on.


One day..


Seriously though guys, the majority of DMs that've posted in this thread aren't even active right now on the server. GD definitely, but I haven't see GBX in ages and Saulus only drops in occasionally to make us all run in fear. I'm not understanding which way this whole 'favourtism' thing is being pointed at from a player perspective. Is this about the nobles? Because I'll tell you, there was no favourtism in that. I requested one the first day news of it was released, and GD bitchslapped me back to Sweden saying I had to uber impress him with both a bio and return to game fulltime.
Even after I did both, he was reluctant to let me play one until I gave an idea of who I might be able to recruit on my behalf of my house.

Incidentally, I've known GD for as long as almost any currently present player on the server.
We tight, for realz. We been through the same factions, same events and he's what I'd consider an "internet buddy".
And I've always gotten close to the same treatment from all of the DMs.
As for Dain.. Are you kidding me?
Does noone realize how far down Dain is on the totem pole of love?

HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT SAULUS DOES TO THIS GUY?

Abuse neverending. It makes me glad Mathell is dead, at least hes set for eternal damnation in the Wall of the Faithless.
Dain is (potentially) forever a token of goodness waiting to be backhanded by a far more terrifying force.
If you really want the same, I guess you can always kick Saulus in the shins next time hes online, and see what happens.

I've been to a slightly lesser degree where Dain is, but with GBX.
Don't get me wrong, it's fun to have a DM eyeing you up when you're online..
But I guarantee GBX was just as attentive to other interesting events and players as he was me.
It just so happened I was playing a character in a faction he enjoyed, and had been the only one active for some time.
If they can't be allowed to partake of what they actually enjoy in the game, what's the point in DMing?



Addendum: As for cliques.. Join the Kelemvorites.

[ThePaganKing]

I usually never post again especially when I start a post, but in this case, I want to make one very large clarification based on someones earlier post.

"TPK feels neglected and unheard."

My post has nothing to do with me and I thought I was very direct about that. I am comfortable and happy about my status on the server, I have fun with what I do, and I don't feel the need to have tons of attention pointed my way. This has to do with many FACTUAL events and occurances I have witnessed since 2007 on the server and what a lot of people, currently and in the past, have complained to me about.

[BedlamX]

Yeah, yeah...I know...my opinion means nothing since I only log in every few weeks anymore...

But, when I started playing on Sundren, I couldn't find any groups other than the guys that came over from our last server with me. DM attention always seemed to be focused on the more established toons. I say "seemed" because the only time I was able to get into an event was when I happened to be around one of them. Funny enough, Dain was not one of them. So I do see the perception here. But wait...there's more...

As I started getting bored with one toon and making more and more, I found that most events were happening with these particular toons because so many people were hanging with them...not because they were something special. It just happened to be that many players hung with the higher level ones due to the need for survival and RP. This was when the server was at really high numbers, too. The staff would see a fairly large group and drop an event on them. Pretty simple and easily explained why my more isolated toons never got any attention.

Fast forward a few months. I made a Thayan Knight to hang with my wife's Red Wizard. At that time, there were several new Thayans, so we got a lot of attention. At this time, the number of Triumverate events were dwarfed by those of the Legion and the Thayans. But, as with everything, it was cyclical and the Thayans started moving on to new players or other servers or whatever. With no more Thayans to hang with, I was about to scrap my only high level toon. Then came the whole "Warden of Wrath" plot line. Now, as a Thayan Knight, my toon never had a chance in hell at that title. But Dain, Tigan, and Saulus let me hang out play along anyway. During that time, the only DM that ever touched our little group was Saulus. And he wasn't on all that much, so we mainly worked without DM intervention and just had fun. I had more events in that time frame with my Red Blade, Coran and my silly gnome than r3 did with Dain. Yes...that original "Team Dain" had events that usually reached to a higher level than most of the others. But nowhere near the number of events and almost no rewards in the way of xp or items (Saulus was a cheapskate in that area :P). But we still had fun with minimal DM interaction.

And...speaking of "Team Dain"...how many other players do you know that started an entire sub-faction of low levels and handed out "quests" for them? R3 did it with his all-new "Team Dain". He thought up quests to send our group on. Sometimes we got DM help. Sometimes we did not. But the fact is, r3 went to the trouble of setting up things for others to do. And all with no compensation, all rewards from his own storage, and him just hanging in the temple barracks waiting for our return. Do I think such a player deserves something extra for spurring such RP all while not being on staff? Damn straight.

OK...enough from the ghosts of the past. I'll shut up now.

[Silas North]

My post has nothing to do with me ...

This is precisely why I gave you rep for this post. You genuinely seem concerned with others and not just yourself. I believe many of the posters here credit you with that as well.

However, whether someone believes there is a problem or not, the only possible 'solution' in sight seems to be involving putting constraints on the DMs. As GBX said, we don't want to turn Sundren into communist Russia. Can you imagine a line five miles long.... just to get a pair of his ugly boots?! *shudder*

[Satoshi]

And...speaking of "Team Dain"...how many other players do you know that started an entire sub-faction of low levels and handed out "quests" for them?

Kai Nightwind, and the Vigilent Eye. Whichever version of Tamara Roth created the Scarlet Lions. Vashano, and his latin-named Mages Circle.

[ManUtd4Ever]

And...speaking of "Team Dain"...how many other players do you know that started an entire sub-faction of low levels and handed out "quests" for them?

Brunus Ironbreaker and Tery Mard - "The Free Brigade" I believe it was called.

[BedlamX]

Sorry, guys...never heard of any of those other than the Free Brigade (and don't remember much about that, to be honest). So we're talking about more players that started stuff and handed out rewards while not partaking in the mini-quests...but don't seem to be around now. Seems a combination of things has to be included to keep things going and remembered (think I'm the only member of either Team Dain version that has basically left the server).

[Silas North]

The Scarlet Lions are before your time Bedlam. Hell, they're before MY time lol. I had far more experience with Tamryn than Tamara. Had some hilarious moments in the mansion though lol.

There are indeed other groups though. It's just typically difficult to even begin such things. Of course, this speaks well of Tamryn, Dain, and everyone that accomplishes such.

[BedlamX]

The Scarlet Lions are before your time Bedlam

lol...all of these were waaayyyy before my time. Last mention of any but the Free Brigade was in 2007. At least I don't feel so bad about not hearing about them now

The point still kinda goes back to asking if any of these people that started things still around? The older ones that I didn't recognize seem (from the forums anyway) to have had fairly large rolls to play in Sundren at the time...and waaayyyy before r3 joined (according to his profile, anyway). Seems like this is just his turn at the "top".

Of course...anything anyone says in here is based on their own perceptions. So I doubt any minds will be changed no matter what. Kinda like arguing religion.