A Sundren Discussion

[ThePaganKing]

I wanted to try and discuss the primary point of my post that was included in the nobility contest post and do it without inflammatory intent, or try to.


Disclaimers:
1. I am not posting this because I feel left out, want more DM interaction, or want to be the center of a clique. I am posting this because of the many times I have experienced favoritism and the many times players have complained, become frustrated, and then left.


2. I am using roguethree in this post because this is the most recent in my memory of possible or perceived favoritism and is not a direct attack against him or any others that are associated with him.


3. I have way too many things in real life to put the great amount of time some of these players and DMs, especially roguethree, put into the server and I applaud their efforts.


There are cliques on this server, and favoritism extends to those who are in them, causing imbalance amongst the player population. This imbalance is tangible and easily recognized by everyone who spends any time playing in Sundren. And, as Satoshi indicated in a recent post "cliques are natural" which they are, but they are not always healthy.


This is not to say that those who are members of the “in crowd” are bad people. Likewise, it is not reasonable to assert members of the “in crowd” are merely being recognized more because their role playing abilities are superior to the rest of the server population. In fact this notion is downright offensive to anyone who is not a member of the “in crowd.”

I have been playing on this server since its inception. I donated to this server at least three times because I believe it is a wonderful place to spend time with people who enjoy role play as much as I do. Because I have spent a long time on this server I have seen its ups and downs. I have seen trends come and go, only to return again as the player population turns over. Without exception, the single most damaging thing that has degraded the overall playing experience of this server is favoritism. I am railing against favoritism and not an individual player or DM.


It is absolutely true that Developers and DMs give of their own personal time to make our time playing in Sundren better. I sincerely appreciate their selflessness. However, I will never be afraid to express my concern or displeasure when their actions appear to create imbalance. Sometimes, perception is reality. Case in point, I give RogueThree a hard time on the forum when he speaks with authority about the direction the server is going or a pending staff decision, etc. I do this because outwardly he appears to be a player like the rest of us. He carries no badges – not DM, Developer, or even Donator; yet, he has insight and knowledge little if any other players have. As a result, the perception is that he is treated differently than the rest of us. IMO he is an exceptional role player. His command of the English language and thoughtful insight into Sundren lore make his dialog some of the best on this server – hands down. But I do not feel the need to kiss his arse.


I also believe his abilities are a curse. Dain has been elevated by the staff to a position of Demi-God on this server. Merely read the forums and you will be hard pressed to find an event where the High Adjudicator did not ride in and save the day. If Dain is in game there is a good chance there is a DM on too who is working with him. Accordingly, other players want to be associated with RogueThree. This means Dain/RogueThree becomes the conduit for events, key happenings in Sundren and not a DM – even though there is usually one or two of the same DMs backing his play. As I look back over the last 12 months and consider some major events that have occurred in Sundren: the Raise of Myrkul, the Lathanderite Temple, the Abyss (new 20th level player area), I realize RogueThree / Dain was instrumental in bringing about all of them. I applaud his efforts, but not the belief that he has to be the center of everything that happens on this server. His abilties are a curse because he attracts a following, which becomes a clique, which gives off the perception that to get anything on this server you must be a member.


IMO, it would be in the best interest of the entire Sundren server population if we considered spreading the weath. I would encourage others to step up and take high positions or be given high positions. I would encourage at least two new players be given noble titles, and I would also encourage other roleplay means, events, or contests so that people can garner those prized red items. I believe this would discourage cliques, or at a minimum, make other players feel they are an integral part of the server.

[Satoshi]

I also believe his abilities are a curse. Dain has been elevated by the staff to a position of Demi-God on this server. Merely read the forums and you will be hard pressed to find an event where the High Adjudicator did not ride in and save the day.

Welcome to role-playing. If an inherent disparity between perceived player skill, command of language, and vocabulary do not cause a tiered class system eventually time and activity will. You don't have to kiss anyone's ass, you don't even have to like it. The fact remains that unless roguethree simply decides to leave for a couple years, he will be a center of influence simply because he has had the time and effort to attract the attention and move events and plots.

DMs are not always capable of being active and like to rely on the player-base to provide ideas and entertainment for themselves and each other during the void time. The most charismatic, interesting, or simply most visible and memorable will capture the collective imagination. These people who draw crowds will become the focal point of DM attention by virtue of the fact that they bring the most 'group role-play' to the server at any given time.

The downside to that is sometimes things become too dependent on any one given individual and you have problems arise due to High Tower Syndrome or sudden lack of activity derailing major plots (this can also happen with the passing of DMs). Your best response is telling other people to 'step up' and 'be more involved', but that's been a push by players and DMs for as long as the server has been around. It's pretty much exactly what I said in the other thread. Some respond: 'I'm not a part of your system!' Others will try to do this, but fail to capture a critical interest from other players because everyone wants to be their own leader unless actually faced with a charismatic, polarizing force. A few will always be relatively obscure simply because they play in an unsupported time zone and will never be part of the major server crowd. All will likely be moot in the face of what has and will continue to occur.

You have always been, and will always be, as invested as your time allows and how well other players and DMs respond to you.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

I don't even know where to start with this, so I'm going to let it be for a while until everyone else has a say. But I will say this:

The fact that you have such little faith in your fellow community hurts, frustrates, and saddens me in a way I have not experienced in quite a long time when it comes to this server.

The feeling is irrational, because this is just a game. But it's a game that a lot of people have invested care and time into.

[Dragor]

I think there is too little emphasis on DM's coming up with their own material, their own storylines that they can work on through several events, weather minor or major. It's too easy just to reply to event requests from the player base, which creates a gap in DM attention between those who request events and those who do not. Which in turn creates, albeit oftimes unintentional, the illusion of cliquisms between certain DM's and certain players like R3.

[Satoshi]

Now that I think about it, the most logical and effective way to counter the power creep of the server would be to acquire a large number of fresh players and DMs who are happily active and spread across several time zones to breath new life into an old server and game. I cannot honestly say I see that happening, though, considering that the game is no longer supported officially and still of fairly shoddy quality and the NWN2 community has had pretty poor retention compared to NWN1.

[Chiangtao]

Oh boy, anyone want to place bets on when this gets locked down? The pending Superbowl has me in a gambling mood!

TPK, a lot of the stuff you're stating is being phrased as "fact," when it isn't. I think it's a lot more helpful when you can say, "I feel this way (which you started out doing, kudos!)," rather than, "It is this way (which is where the conversation went)." It may not make a difference to you, but if you want something responded to and changed, you will find people more receptive to this type of phrasing. Feelings can't be argued with, but facts can. And, it looks very accusatory to write things like above.

Staff are people. They will work with others who they enjoy. There are some folks who trumpet around the forums like their 1st Ammendment rights (sorry foreigners!) are being violated on a regular basis. These posters typically start off their posts with, "I know I will get flamed for this, but I am never afraid to speak my mind." And this all feeds into the amount of attention you will get. Speaking your mind is one thing; offending someone is another. If you phrase things poorly, it turns people off. Being turned off leads to not enjoying your company. Not enjoying your company leads to less attention in-game. Connected, it all is, says Master Yoda...

Anyway, I'm sorry if that sounded mean! My simple suggestion is just to work on phrasing things differently when you post. Getting reception of your ideas is important, not just voicing them, right?

[GodBeastX]

Oh snap! It's GBX posting up in this thrizzead!

So, we're talking favorites! Cool, this discussion has never came up before in NWN2 on any other server ever made. <_< >_> <-- These are shifty eyes

Anyway, favoritism... Let me ask you one question before we continue, Pagan, do you have any favorite players or individuals on the server you like interacting with? How about anybody else reading this thread?

Every single person on the ---bloooooody--- planet has one or more favorites unless they are brand new to a community. It's natural, and that's how cliques form. You feel comfortable with certain people and uncomfortable with others.

How does that question relate to this thread? Glad you asked (Or Didn't and I am pretending you did).

Favoritism is not the same as favorites. Favoritism is an implied situation from a player standpoint that one or more person(s) are given an unfair advantage over other players based upon limited viewpoints.

In other words, it's a perception and rarely is based around hard facts. For example, is it that every plot has revolved around XYZ player? Or has XYZ player always showed up for those plots? As Satoshi said, time online is a BIG factor in this. As players are online a great deal, the DM team becomes more understanding of their char, more comfortable with them. This does not mean that the DM is catering to the player, but it can mean the DM might do more for the character. And why shouldn't dedication be rewarded?

Now, from my standpoint, which may be atypical of the current DM team. I most definitely have favorites. This is what I judge my favorites on in order of importance:

1. OOC Pleasant!

People who go out of their way to be kind to others and me instantly gain more points over the rest of the server.

Some people like to call this "Ass Kissing", but logging in an having some people go "Long time no see, what's been up man? How's life?" makes me feel more at home on the server. I'm human. Watching RP interaction and seeing people being courteous, especially to new players, always warms my heart. These people are my definite favorites!

2. Can take it and like it!

I'm sorry, but I can't stand when you run a storyline, and people are whining and nagging about BS or going off into some world of make believe that DMs are out to screw them or get them.

I remember somebody was complaining during one of my events how people never get exp from events and why should they bother. Then they pointed out how other people are making epic levels and they're still on the same one and stuff like that. Ironically, I gave this person a whole level after the event, BEFORE I knew they were complaining like that. No, I didn't take the experience back, or even bring up the situation with them. But it does leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Guess what, I'm Human, so are other DMs. Some people forget! They don't remember to right-click and give experience. They might be scared to give too much experience less they incur the Admin wrath (Which they won't), or even rep rewards! It happens. Is all that complaining helping to remedy the situation or is it just venting frustration with no cure? How hard is it to go "Yo, we getting a reward?"

But #2 extends to more than that. You run into an event and bad things can always happen! Some might not be resolved at the end of the event! If people get bent out of shape about that, how can I run an engaging story? Should I just put a "Win Event Now" button in the UI so people can decide "Hey, fuck your story, I just want the rewards!" and they can have them and I can move on to other stories that people like the RP? This is usually because people are afraid to look weak on their chars, or incompetent or even fallible. So they get bitter when something non-positive for the char, no matter HOW it came about, happens.


#3. Roleplay!

Notice this isn't my first thing I look for? That's because Roleplay isn't always someone's strong suit, or they are new to it. Also, some people, as said, can't command english as well, or even think to involve themselves openly. Even though it's some people's shortcommings, it is still important. So it does get on my list.

OOC bastards need not apply, they probably failed #1 and #2 already.

People think roleplay is just in character. It's not, it's giving a character life. Personality. All the things that make someone enjoyable! Quirks, strengths, weaknesses, likes, dislikes, and more importantly, putting them out there for others to see.

Let me put this in terms you can understand. Let's imagine we all were reading a book:

The flickers of the candle danced about painting vivid silhouettes upon the stone walls of the corridor.

Okay, now that above might be considered roleplaying. Now let's see how I can say the same thing.

The hall is lit by a candle.

Which is a better image for your mind? Let's apply that to roleplay. If people behave in plots like robots or as though they are uninterested, how am I to know how it's recieved? If I set up a thrilling moment for the char, or a fearful moment, a moment of pride, etc, and the only reaction is.

Bob looks at the moment.

I feel like I am boring you, or you don't want to put forth much effort to the event.

People who know me know one of my rules. If you make me laugh or entertain me IC you get bonus exp automatically. It's not to reward the comics in the world, but it's an incentive to enjoy the situations you are presented and bring other people around you enjoyment.

I think over the course of sundren, Malaclypse has gotten the most bonus exp for that, Xaayne used to get a bunch too. I also remember the first time I saw Kaizen RP on his stormlord and was mad with the power of talos, he got tons of exp for that.

Bring out your character!

------

So back on topic. I run events, primarily, for anybody who is standing still long enough for me to actually setup a plot. I can't keep up with people running around as much as I'd love to, because the interface for DM can't read my mind and DM client doesn't load areas as fast as player client.

I also try to set up events to get to know a character! If people react to my "Let me see what this char is about" events with little interest, it's not much of an incentive for me, a Human, to try again and again, even though I tend to try again and again

But the bottom line is, Favoritism is usually 95% perception and stewing in a corner waiting for something to happen to you that seems to happen to other people. Notice I didn't say 100%, sometimes it is literally that player being well liked. But given my personal list of likes, do you think it's so bad I like some people for how much they add color to the server?

I like to reward people for trying, but my only way of knowing what people are doing is feedback and them... you know... actually showing they're trying.

Right now, though, I got a few storylines planned, but I can't run them because I got WAAAAAAY too much dev work on my plate which I hope will make things better for everyone.

[GodBeastX]

Oh yeah, I forgot to say one thing. Dain, and every other character I know on the server started at the same point as everyone else. Someone none of us knew until they logged in. And that was after Sundren already existing for years, so... yeah, anybody can be Dain.

I personally don't tend to run things for the same people over and over. I am Human and I get bored

Plus I hate Dain. <-- this is my grrrrr face, even though I don't hate him.

[Saulus]

Dain would be nothing without me. I made him into what he is today.

That is all.

[GodBeastX]

Oh, and ONE last thing.

If you feel someone is stealing the show for an event, you can always poke me if you end up in mine in the future. I'm usually off in my storyteller mind so I can't always notice:

"Yo, GBX, this guy isn't giving me time to do anything."

and I can then poke the player.

"Yo, slow yo' roll, son! Give other people a moment to try stuff too."

[Cornuto]

Oh boy, anyone want to place bets on when this gets locked down? The pending Superbowl has me in a gambling mood!

TPK, a lot of the stuff you're stating is being phrased as "fact," when it isn't. I think it's a lot more helpful when you can say, "I feel this way (which you started out doing, kudos!)," rather than, "It is this way (which is where the conversation went)." It may not make a difference to you, but if you want something responded to and changed, you will find people more receptive to this type of phrasing. Feelings can't be argued with, but facts can. And, it looks very accusatory to write things like above.

Staff are people. They will work with others who they enjoy. There are some folks who trumpet around the forums like their 1st Ammendment rights (sorry foreigners!) are being violated on a regular basis. These posters typically start off their posts with, "I know I will get flamed for this, but I am never afraid to speak my mind." And this all feeds into the amount of attention you will get. Speaking your mind is one thing; offending someone is another. If you phrase things poorly, it turns people off. Being turned off leads to not enjoying your company. Not enjoying your company leads to less attention in-game. Connected, it all is, says Master Yoda...

Anyway, I'm sorry if that sounded mean! My simple suggestion is just to work on phrasing things differently when you post. Getting reception of your ideas is important, not just voicing them, right?

I like this post very much. None of us are going to take it personal if you offer constructive criticism about the server. (For the record TPK, I didnt take anything accusatory from you post either, but wanted to highlight the above as general good advice.) If there is staff bias, either real or percieved, that you feel is negatively impacting the server then it should be addressed. We won't be locking the thread unless it takes a turn toward finger pointing and negativity. (See above for some tips on avoiding this).

[Cornuto]

<-- this is my grrrrr face, even though I don't hate him.

Your grrrrr face is pretty weaksauce, GBX.


EDIT: I also want to say that I really like GBX's long-ass post as its full of experiance and wisdom.

Also words... many words.

[Standur]

Since we are putting disclaimers on this post I want Pagan King to know that nothing said here is a shot at him but I wanted to add my perceptions of Sundren as a short-timer. I was shocked to see that I have been playing on the server for six months but perhaps I can offer a semi-fresh perspective.

Do cliques exist on Sundren? Of course they do but not because people go out of their way to be unfriendly. So why do they happen? Time zones, character levels and factions are easily the biggest reasons. My time zone is CST so I tend to run into people who play that time zone on a regular basis. It will not be uncommon to see my PC’s partied with Xalbrus, Tamha, Luv Handles, Yevelian, Satoshi, Brendig, FoogooFish, Handsomeman, etc. It is going to happen because we run into each other a lot. That does not mean I don’t want to RP with other players just that it becomes easy to slide into character with those that you get used to playing with. I spent a lot of time partying with players who came and went and then soloing before I figured out that if you just message people who are on regularly they will often find a way to RP with you.

Character level difference is probably the hardest problem to get past. There are only a certain number of PC’s online at a time but people have been known to switch if you ask. They might not but try asking anyway.

Does DM favoritism exist? Maybe but if it does I haven’t seen it in my short six months. Off the top of my head I can’t think of a single DM that hasn’t had some kind of interaction with me. Some of it has been quick and dirty and some more long-term. Some has been through direct requests, some has been spontaneous and some has been because of forum RP postings (this has been spectacular btw). Of the two major DM events I have had the pleasure of participating in none of them have involved Dain and one of them has been crafted specifically around one of my PC’s. Of the servers that I have played on Sundren has the most active group of DM’s that I have encountered. I will encourage players to post details about any DM interaction they cook up for you. It brings the characters and world to life.

I wanted to comment on this statement in particular:

“it would be in the best interest of the entire Sundren server population if we considered spreading the wealth. I would encourage others to step up and take high positions or be given high positions"

I agree with the sentiment of this statement but I think it is on the player’s and not the DM’s to make this happen. I was very shocked, and still am to be honest, after reading how influential Helm is in Sundren to join that faction and find that I am really the only regular faction member posting on the forum. I have been trying to push Ryland’s presence constantly and found the DM’s pretty responsive to that. (Oh by the way Ryland is trying to recruit a new initiate to the church if anyone is interested please see him in game). If you as a player see something that is missing from Sundren share ideas of how you would like to fill the void with the DM’s. I’ll bet you’ll find them eager to help you if you pitch them a constructive idea.

[[DM] Grinning Death]

All right, now that my work day is done I have more time to sit down and think of a reply. Let me first begin explaining why I feel the way I do about what you said in this, and your previous posts.

When you accuse (and that is what you did) the DM staff of favoritism, you are inherently attacking our integrity as DM's and developers. And as a completely volunteer DM staff that does its utmost in order to allow players to have fun, it further adds insult to injury. This is because all of that 'favoritism' that you profess exists, in fact, has little or no bearing on the actual truth of the matter. I do agree with previous posts in the fact that we DM's do have players that we tend to like playing with because they make an effort as much as we do to get involved.

When players want to get involved, the DM's want to get involved. Maybe not all the time, but a large part of it. Active DM's respond positively to positive feedback and interest. Saying, "Man, that event you ran the other day was super cool, do you think I could do a small event to take it further?" is better than saying....well, nothing. When you don't speak up, or you speak up in ways that serve only to dishearten the community that supports you, certain consequences are logical.

Let's take the nobility system as an example. Did you see all of those posts preceding yours? The ones that suggested helpful tips to make it better, and more accessible to the general populace (in spite of the fact that it is open to everyone who can create a convincing bio for a noble)? Those are the things that make me want to work more for the players. They excite me, they inspire me. They make me want to play with my community because it shows that they have an interest in something that I put together, for them. Your post? Told me that it was doomed to failure unless I listened to you.

Now, don't misunderstand. I do think that you have the best interests of the server at heart. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here. You do seem to care, and want to make it better for everyone. But the way you come off (despite your disclaimers) is only damaging to the community as a whole, and discouraging to me, at the very least. You don't know what players are involved in events. You don't know what items they may or may not have. And you certainly don't know how the DM staff operates.

If you really think there is a problem, and you can name specific things and people, then you are encouraged to report it to the staff. Otherwise, I have posted my hours for the last several months, asking people for event requests. DM's have run several plot lines in and out of their timezones. There is an active staff that answers character requests. The staff has pushed and prodded the community to vote for their favorite RP'er of each month, and who should get the ECL characters.

If you honestly feel as though we are not as open, inviting, and friendly as we could be, then I invite you to volunteer some time (because we all have families and lives as well) in order to make us the way you think we should.

[Chiangtao]

So, if I can mediate, this comes down to feelings. Not facts - feelings. They can't be argued, they just need to be stated as such so that good dialog can come from it.

TPK feels neglected and unheard.

The staff feels accused and unappreciated.

Start from there gentlemen