A Reminder

[DM_Acorn]

Hear, hear.

One of the themes I don't like in the recent posts is that having a weakness (like a 6 CHA) in a toon is a bad thing. It is not as long as it is played to. I have a dwarf who suffers from a condition known as "mace face." He boisterous, opinionated, and above all, awkward socially. He frequently makes an ass out of himself. DMs have had social interactions go terribly for him (children scampering away in fear being among the most recent). What I don't like are accusations that I have "skill dumped" and the implication that I am somehow less of a player for having made that choice. For example, after the child screamed and scampered away the DM then decided to make an example of me by commenting publicly how tired he/she was of people skill dumping.

Honestly, epic characters some times gain extra flavor by having epic flaws. I personally feel that we should ease up on creating a stigma around it. Providing that the weakness is played to in an appropriate way.

This.

The reaction of negative stat score seems to be in retaliation to this idea of "stat-dumping."

Disappointingly, the reactions I have seen to date have been too severe and border on the absurd. While the opposite is true for actually boosting in a stat.

[Intrepid42]

Hell yeah, Kusco.

My CHA 6 dwarf with a rather negative Diplomacy score was out and about one day. He managed to get beaten up by the Black Hand then nearly arrested by the Legion on the same day! If it wasn't for his higher-CHA clanmates with better social skills he might still be hanging out in the jail wondering what the hell just happened. Good times.

[DM_Acorn]

I used to work with with DownS and Asbergers. Their social skills and even appearance could be found somewhere around -2 to -3 standar deviations so their Cha would be 4, 5 maybe 6 for the really charming ones.

Would I shout at them in the streets or run from them? None of them even the farthest from standard didn't make people cry just by looking at them.

This doesn't take into account perspectives either. Some of my students fell in love with each other so to them they saw each other as attractive even though the "on par" people might not.

With most NPCs having a 10 and 8 really is not that bad, they could even be married to one. While doubts observation with the a paladin of Sune (Cha 22) could rightly be repulsed.

The blanket statement that a negative modifier means you always get a negative result leads to this in game:

Dwarf A with a CHA 7 talking to NPC Dwarf B - CHA 8

Dwarf A: "Hullo cousin."
Dwarf B: "Ug, I sure hope not."

This is not appropriate. It is an attempt to punish a player for allegedly "dumping."

You won't have this happen from me in game I assure you.

[Gamling]

For example, after the child screamed and scampered away the DM then decided to make an example of me by commenting publicly how tired he/she was of people skill dumping.

Whoever did that is dumb.

Another example of someone who really needs to lighten up and let people play a game instead of nit-picking every excruciating, microscopic detail. The game is about RP, not about what's on your character sheet.

[DM_Acorn]

Let's not call names. Thanks.

[roguethree]

The game is about RP, not about what's on your character sheet.

RP what's on your character sheet.

[Peridan]

To be honest, I think the problem here is a lot of subjective v. objective points of view on what 'charisma' really is. And that's great, but it isn't useful when you apply some common sense.

Do these numbers not make sense in the real world? Probably not, in many cases.

But should we toss them out in favor of the subjectivity of the real world? I don't think so either.

Striking a balance between numbers and roleplay is something that is tough to do, and tougher to reconcile with other people. Some people take more inspiration from their character sheet than others, and argue that if it isn't there, it shouldn't be in your character. Others say this restricts their roleplay beyond what is reasonable or realistic.

I'm not suggesting there's a right answer here, only that both sides try and view the benefits of the other, and try and incorporate them into how they play. If I know your character has 5 CHA, will I treat them the same as someone with 15? Not really. But there's enough ambiguity to make a solid case for either side, I think.

[DM_Acorn]

An 8 is not average. If you're sub-10, you're subpar.

This does not mean you should be treated like a abhorrent freak or a social mongrel, right? You might be ugly, shy, awkward, insecure or unable to communicate your thoughts.

Then again you might be an abhorrent freak, that should be up the the player not the stats The stats should guide and folks with negative Cha modifiers should not be a negotiator, but they could certainly bark orders in a fight.

[Mournas]

Oh for fucks sake, stop trying to legitimise people who couldn't give a rats ass about what people use as a dump start and start taking into account what the stats you've chosen might say about your character.

Really, is it so fucking important for you to maximize every drop of AC/AB that you can completely forget about even trying to pretend that your stats make an ounce of difference to how your character plays?

You want to Mary Sue it up, go play Amber. Here we ask you to kindly take that stats you've chosen into consideration.

Touchy touchy ... and for fucks sake - as you would put it - I am not legitimizing shit for anyone. But to say below 10 Cha would make you hate yourself and have mental issues, then all the -2 and -4 Cha Races might as well just go kill themselves if they are so depressed that they resort to using potions of eagle's splendor as a prescription substitute for Xanax.

[Seheren]

I think a large portion of why many people are put off by the low CHA issue is the people with exceptional CHA see no benefit beyond mechanical most of the time. I know I've seen events where people with 20+ CHA are treated without respect or ignored.

That said. I see 10 CHA as being very average or normal. You would be somewhat forgettable, but they think you are just fine. 8 CHA ((for human)) I see as either you have a definite flaw in your personality, or physical appearance. There is something about you that may push others away. It could be that you are just a little awkward, or annoying.. I don't see 8 CHA as someone who is so repulsive you can't speak to them..

[Cornuto]

GTFO with your 6 charismas.

[Seheren]

GTFO with your 6 charismas.

I find that utterly ridiculous.. I want to know who that was who could be average after rotting a bit.

[Mournas]

Obviously a very sexy zombie, nor does he want to commit suicide.

[ManUtd4Ever]

I play a Gray Dwarf in game with an extremely low CHA. His bio, combined with the natural starting point for Duergar's CHA score, speaks to the reasons for this score.

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthr...uld+grimhammer

The consequences of such a low CHA score is that he can't lead. In spite of that fact he has mechanically amassed a good faction reputation score, he takes no part in faction leadership. I attribute his reputation score to "stories told" about his accomplishments on the field of battle. This said, he does not suffer from low self-esteem or any other mental infliction that would cause him to doubt his role and purpose in life. This is largely because of his devotion and commitment to his diety.

Stephen Hawking's has accomplished more in life than most of us combined... and yet, I doubt his CHA score is higher than an 8. He certainly does not suffer from a low self esteem in spite of the fact that he has to blow through a straw to type out his thoughts. Now that is bad ass self confidence in my book. Or is his CHA higher as a result?

Cheers!

[kuscotopia]

GTFO with your 6 charismas.

Yeah but look at that CON and INT score.

Sheesh, those zombies totally min/maxed.