A Reminder

[Catastrophe]

I don't get it.

[blurry89]

I don't get it.

You're also not in roguethree's Cool Gang, so the confusion is understandable.

[Catastrophe]

I'd like to refer you to the post in my signature. It applies to you as well.

[Nyssis]

I am okay with this.

[Catastrophe]

Looking away from the silliness that this thread evolved in, I feel this needs a nice bump after the healthy amount of new players we have been gaining.

Edit: Well, not so much the AFK thing anymore, but the other stuff, yeah.

[Poltergeist]

I have seen some physically attractive people in real life that once they open their mouth it just doesn't matter anymore.

I believe the point R3 is trying to make, and one I agree with - and correct me if I'm wrong, bud - is that if your character has it, you as a player, can choose to take away for the sake of what you want your PC to be.

If you don't have it, then you can't give it.

Think of your attribute points as an art project. The more points you have, the more tools and resources you can work with - you, as the artist, can choose to omit some things for the sake of a unique and individual story.

The less points you have, the less you can work with; and so you find yourself unable to add much - if anything at all.

It's the reason for the character sheet in the first place - checks and balances.

We shouldn't pretend that my Favored Soul with 8 wisdom can't distinguish an Aasimar paladin from an Orc barbarian at 50 yards and can only hear the artillery strike if it hits a munitions depot, but yet can somehow manage the otherworldy introspection of Buddha and offer great psychiatric and extrospective advice to the jaded and guilted soldier.

And my rogue with 8 charisma doesn't just have a caustic personality and horrible social graces - he also played in traffic as a child. If I want him to be the suave and good looking dickhead archtype that introduces all the Sunite ladies to a life of debauchery outside their cushy velvet walls; well, I think I'll shift some points into charisma.

You can have Cha 6 human that is kinda good looking, but is grumpy, doesnt wash often, swear, and lacks social empathy.

That's like saying you can have a STR 6 human who can only bench press 75 pounds but can mule like his life depended on it. If you want a positive attribute, you need a positive score.

A CHA of 6 doesn't get you anywhere close to attractive. A CHA of 10 might just about cut a reasonably attractive but socially brain numbing person.

6 is going to be the kind of face people cross the street to avoid, makes small children cry and who sunites recommend a fashionable full face covering or complete darkness.

Personality wise a short conversation with a 6 would probably leave you feeling dirty and creeped out.

In modern times they could easily audition for deformed sex offender of the month on Law and Order: SVU.

6 isn't going to be easily fixed by having a shower and shutting up.

Reminder: Charisma isn't just how other people see your character, or how they interact with others, it's also how your character sees themself. It's self confidence. Low charisma characters should have low self-esteem and be insecure. High charisma characters command others. Low charisma characters can't command themselves.

This goes for Wisdom and Intelligence too.

[Mournas]

The Theory of Relativity of statistics.

Reminder: Charisma isn't just how other people see your character, or how they interact with others, it's also how your character sees themself. It's self confidence. Low charisma characters should have low self-esteem and be insecure. High charisma characters command others. Low charisma characters can't command themselves.

This goes for Wisdom and Intelligence too.

I don't completely agree with this. You have to go beyond just the numbers on a character sheet. Each character starts with stats 2 below the racial average. It is also extremely important to understand that with each step away from this average, positive or negative becomes exceedingly rare. The best way to think of this is by using the IQ Bell Curve - because it is, after all, the way they came up with the statistical scores for DnD in the first place.


As I said before each deviation away from these for a human becomes exceedingly rare. Having a 16 in any one stat means that for all of the 7 Billion people on earth you are within the top .5%

So a completely average joe schmo human would have the following stats:
Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

Someone like Charles Manson might have stats similar to:

Str: 9-11
Dex: 12-13
Con: 9-11
Int: 13-14
Wis: 6-8
Cha: 15-16

Keeping this in mind, All races are based off of the 10 point average AND all other races are based off of the human perspective, it is important to understand this because an 8 Cha Shield Dwarf to another Shield Dwarf is like a 10 Cha Human to another 10 Cha Human. With that in mind an Average Joe Schmo Shield Dwarf would have stats:

Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

The 8 coming from the perspective of humans that Dwarfs are burly, rowdy, loud and have poor table manners, yet it is completely NORMAL to their society. That is also to say a 6 Cha Shield Dwarf would not hate and loath himself because he is 2 below his racial norm. Lets just say when Moradin was forging him he came from Iron vs the Steel that a normal Shield Dwarf is born from.

Also if you really want to get Technical and play Rules Lawyer over a persons Stats then ... 1 you should reflect upon what that says about your own personal stats, and your personality. Lets face it, most of us are nerds or dorks here and as humans we tend to form resentments over petty things, and to me that says to me Sundren has a lot of 8 Cha people running around behind a computer ... Case and point read: The Cask of Amontillado by Edgar Allen Poe. Montresor shows his colors and would be the prime example of someone with an 8 Cha.

Furthermore it is folly to think that people could not step out of the realm of their normal stats every once in a while. Ever hear someone who normally has the worst ideas come up with a really good one? Someone who is tired of being weak decides to go build some muscle. That smart kid you once knew who is now burnt out from too much pot.

Granted if a 6 cha character is always trying to play as a 16 cha character then there are some issues there.

In the end Stats are numbers relative to the Roll play system that is 3rd and 3.5 DnD. Every little thing is so technical and built out of an equation which leaves little for the imagination, which is - dare I say - the life blood of Dungeons and Dragons. Imagination, damn what a concept!

[Doubtful]

Oh for fucks sake, stop trying to legitimise people who couldn't give a rats ass about what people use as a dump start and start taking into account what the stats you've chosen might say about your character.

Really, is it so fucking important for you to maximize every drop of AC/AB that you can completely forget about even trying to pretend that your stats make an ounce of difference to how your character plays?

You want to Mary Sue it up, go play Amber. Here we ask you to kindly take that stats you've chosen into consideration.

[FayrisNyanNyan]

We all know Mournas loves his AC/AB.

[DM_Acorn]

From SRD

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting

The Charisma stat is an abstraction of no less than 5 things not directly linked to one another. Assuming it is an average.

Attractiveness - 16
ability to lead - 4
force of persona - 8
Personal magnatism - 10
Persuasiveness - 7
total - 45 avgerage - 9

AKA a supermodel might get you to donate to charity, they look hot in a bikini, but would you let them take command during an zombie apocalypse? NO.

The scale is:
3 Lowest possible human
9-12 average and
18 truly exceptional.

That means if the bell curve applies which it should.

3-4 would be -3SDs
5-6 would be -2SDs
7-8 would be -1SD
9-11 would be 0SD
12-13 +1
14-15 +2
16-17 +3
18-19 +4

Yeah they follow the bell curve on purpose. So.

Originally Posted by Doubtful
A CHA of 6 doesn't get you anywhere close to attractive. A CHA of 10 might just about cut a reasonably attractive but socially brain numbing person.
***90% of people are reasonably attractive but socially brain numbing***

6 is going to be the kind of face people cross the street to avoid, makes small children cry and who sunites recommend a fashionable full face covering or complete darkness.
***for every 100 people you pass by you cross the street or a child cries twice?***

Personality wise a short conversation with a 6 would probably leave you feeling dirty and creeped out.
***again you feel dirty and creeped out by 2 out of evey 100***

In modern times they could easily audition for deformed sex offender of the month on Law and Order: SVU.
***there are 6.6 Million of these in the us?***

6 isn't going to be easily fixed by having a shower and shutting up.

This doesn't work for me, sorry Doubt.

I say we try keep these two things in mind:

1. Below average is NOT bottom of the barrel. Beides, even people at the bottom of the barrel are people too.

2. Sundren's stats do not allow for severe dump and so a stat of 6-8 should be seen as already having some investment (albiet forced investment)

[roguethree]

I'm going to go ahead and repeat myself. If there is something about you that would make people react positively to you, then you should have a positive Charisma score.

2. Sundren's stats do not allow for severe dump and so a stat of 6-8 should be seen as already having some investment (albiet forced investment)

6/8 is the opposite of investing in a stat. It's below average. An 8 (6 for certain races) is what you achieve by putting zero effort into something. Less than that and you're dealing with a genetic disadvantage or permanently altering calamity, like a mangled arm or an unflattering scar. An 8 is not average. Even commoners get the average of 3d6 (10-11). If you're sub-10, you're subpar.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I think i've been out with a few 6's....

[thaelis]

We all know Mournas loves his AC/AB.

LOL,... I'm surprised he didn't publish a book on how to max your AC/AB yet

[Intrepid42]

This is yet another reason why playing a dwarf solves so many problems.

Everyone kind of expects you to be unattractive and obnoxious, and possibly smelly, so if you've got a low CHA PC half your work is already done for you.

Roll one up today!

( Disclaimer: Actually personal hygeine for your typical hold-bound dwarf in standard flavour FR is extremely important, them living so close together. It's merely that humans tend to meet them while they're in the middle of a hard day's work at the forge trying to get that shirt of chainmail finished. Under those circumstances it's no wonder they get a CHA penalty )

[kuscotopia]

I'm going to go ahead and repeat myself. If there is something about you that would make people react positively to you, then you should have a positive Charisma score.

Hear, hear.

One of the themes I don't like in the recent posts is that having a weakness (like a 6 CHA) in a toon is a bad thing. It is not as long as it is played to. I have a dwarf who suffers from a condition known as "mace face." He boisterous, opinionated, and above all, awkward socially. He frequently makes an ass out of himself. DMs have had social interactions go terribly for him (children scampering away in fear being among the most recent). What I don't like are accusations that I have "skill dumped" and the implication that I am somehow less of a player for having made that choice. For example, after the child screamed and scampered away the DM then decided to make an example of me by commenting publicly how tired he/she was of people skill dumping.

Honestly, epic characters some times gain extra flavor by having epic flaws. I personally feel that we should ease up on creating a stigma around it. Providing that the weakness is played to in an appropriate way.