The Divine Caster Issue

[Kaizen]

(edit)

[very angry goose]

The only difference with assassins and hipsters and stuff is the fact that they have an easier time than others re-opening if something goes wrong. In the end it still comes down to the element of surprise which you can't really nerf it's just something that happens sometimes.

QFT. The ability to ambush over and over is the one advantage a HiPSter rogue has over anyone else.

Anyway, back on topic! I didn't mean to hijack this thread and turn it into a HiPS discussion!

[JotunWarrior]

I've got to say, I'd love to see an event where something like this happens:

Crying woman runs up to campfire, "Oh no, orcs!"
Clerics start buffing up
Five minutes later the clerics go to the place where the orcs were, and the orcs have already raided it and left.

[mrgrey]

Hey, thanks for posting this topic. I'm playing a multiclass cleric, and although I have tried to incorporate the God into my RPing, I think I can do more. Thanks for the inspiration.

[Sir Kharn]

Hey, thanks for posting this topic. I'm playing a multiclass cleric, and although I have tried to incorporate the God into my RPing, I think I can do more. Thanks for the inspiration.

Rational discussion paying off.
I try to say prayers and stuff like that when i cast with Kharn. But sometimes i dont due to various reasons..my spellings been shite of late being one of them.
Lately tho, i've seen quite a few holy types preaching when they buff and even heard of one that was preaching to the masses like an evangelist.
One thing i've never heard tho is a wizard spouting the verbal component of a spell. Would be great if this went on to inspire others into greater efforts as mrgrey has been, indeed i think with the quality of the RP i've seen lately i think threads like this already have.

My little ramble.

[Silas North]

Pfft... clerics. Os has whooped every cleric he's faced... though considering he's a 'caster class' himself, that does not really make the point any less valid I guess lol. It's EKs and Arcane Scholars that I fear.

I do think that people are a little too quick to use the word "overpowered". I think I've said as much on this topic before. Moreso, I think the problem is such classes are often 'idiot-proof' more than truly overpowered, though that's still a problem. In terms of power, the problem lies in a few choice spells rather than the classes in themselves.

I believe that class balance (whether it is a matter of ease of play or pure power) actually IS important and I don't agree at all with the "things are not supposed to be balanced" mindset. Truly, just altering (or even removing) a few spells would fix everything or at least fix a great deal.

Should a faithless be as powerful as a wielder of the divine? If he or she trains hard enough and has enough experience, I say DEFINITELY YES. I always saw this as a story centering around mortals rather than the boring gods. The Dead Three are a great example of how mortals can obtain power on par with gods after they kicked the crap out of all of Jergal's servants and may have been able to do the same to Jergal himself (the latter is obviously up for debate).

More importantly, class 'balance' adds to rp. I guarantee that if things were more balanced, there would be a wider margin of different kinds of builds, which would result in a wider range of different characters with different backgrounds, motivations, etc. Sundren is consisted of many people who are not concerned with being "the best" when it comes to kicking ass, however many don't want to play a complete weenie either and that's a fair stance to have. Balancing things out would encourage them to expand their horizons.

[Root]

Can something also be done about Bigby's? I'm tired of every single facedown I have with any caster being ended instantly by that I-Win spell. Heck, technically it should be the one spell my character is ABLE to resist (being weak against anything that requires a will save), but even her massive 27 Str fails against Bigby's about 75% of the time.

And yeah, I generally support the nerfing of Clerics, since at the moment it's getting to the point where the server is balanced for Clerics. And nothing I can kill alone rewards me XP, something fairly sucky when I'm on in quiet times of the day, and tend to get Bigby'sd whenever I enter main RP spots.


And another thing... The class that takes the longest to rest, at the moment, is a pure fighter (and, I suppose, an EK). Clerics rest in armour then remove the debuff with Lesser Restoration, meaning it takes them 12 seconds. Wizards just kneel down for 6 seconds.

Fighters have to take off their armour (18 seconds), rest(6 seconds), then put it back on.(38 seconds)

And yet Clerics are supposed to be the ones doing praying and meditation...

[Kaizen]

To be fair, the server has a nice even mix of classes. The only class lacking is the Swashbuckler/Duelist. Every other class is pretty much accouted for.

I see more assassins/hipsters then anything else.

[Kaeldorn]

I agree with Root's sentiment that the server being balanced towards cleric buffs is a tad annoying. The most difficult stat to balance around is, in my opinion, AC. It simply comes from too many sources, most of which are not available to most characters (dwarven defender, dragon disciple, fighter L6 and 12 or so) and feats for which they don't meet the prereqs or that simply don't suit the character concept (expertise, high tumble skill, tower shields). Clerics/favored souls compensate for all of these drawbacks simply by loading themselves with AC increasing buffs, and they don't sacrifice much of anything to get them.

Something that'd level the playing field here somewhat would be to tone down Magic Vestment a bit. Make it cap at a +4 bonus, and not castable on shields.

Also, I think that buff spells in general cap out much later compared to offensive spells that are gone after a single use and that there's really not that much of a basis for it. Shield of Faith is a level 1 spell that maxes out at level 18 for a +5 AC bonus and a duration that just keeps increasing, whereas burning hands stops at level 5 for 5d4 damage. I mean... what? Buff spells are just generally too cheap. Especially on a server where you don't fight only a few encounters in a day, but more like 20 of them in quick succession.

[Root]

Mmm. I don't say that spellcasting as a whole should be nerfed (although longer resting times and durations wouldn't hurt), but the 'certain key spells' that every mage or caster has.

The Greater Resistance, the Bigby's, the Divine Power, the Shield of Faith/Magic Vestment x2/ ,etc.

[Kaeldorn]

Please don't touch bigby's.. it's one of the only spells that actually works against vampires

[Root]

That's because it works against pretty much anything without a spell mantle (which Cleric vampires can get...)

[Kaeldorn]

Not with Colibrus' or Bane's domains, though.

[Lothoir]

Clerics shouldn't get spell mantle, but they do. All clerics get it.

However, rather than nerf classes I'm much more in favor of buffing other classes. Make magic items like rings of freedom of movement or the like be more easily accessible. It's not game breaking to give noncasters items that let you cast a certain spell once or twice a day at a caster level that's laughably easy to dispel if the opposing caster has any idea as to what he's doing. Add more feats for fighters would also go a long way towards that.

[Lilene Jora]

I would think, if saves weren't crazy inflated, sunbeams, sunbursts, control undead, and undeath to death might work just fine too :P


Ick Ick ick. Giving everyone the same immunities as a cleric isn't the right solution either, even if it's from low caster level items.