The Divine Caster Issue

[Kaizen]

... is not a gamplay or mechanics or 'it's not fair!!!' one, it's a roleplaying one.

I've seen alot of hate directed towards the magic using classes, especially the clerics/favored souls.

And really, most of it is just bitching and moaning because people's classes can't do as much as a cleric can.

Which you shouldn't. Ever.

Honestly, I fully expect a Cleric or Favored Soul to wipe the floor with Shepard the Faithless Fighter. They are walking bastions of the Gods, after all.

Roguethree said sometime back that this is Sundren, a RP server, not World of Sundrencraft. I agree completely.

And that brings into concern some of the Divine casters on the server. I've seen some clerics powerbuilt with classes that are clearly conflicting roleplaying wise. I've seen clerics join factions that are completely conflicting with their deity and the God in question would have no business supporting anyone in them.

Given that the Clerics can solo Veritas and aquire mass amounts of gold to gain reputation and uber loot, they do it anyways. For the loot. Or CvC.

Almost all Clerics refuse to preach their deity, in one form or the other. Forget preaching, most Clerics do not even speak which deity they belong to, instead content with placing a 'pendant of random god' on their character examine sheet.

The same thing happens when a DM runs an event and the situation is obviously not kosher with a Cleric's deity, but they still run with it.

For example:

Tempus's clerics pray for spells just before highsun. The eves and anniversaries of great battles are the holy days of the church of Tempus, and as such vary from place to place. The Feast of the Moon, honouring the dead, is the most important fixed date in the religious calendar. Each temple holds a Feast of Heroes at highsun and a Song of the Fallen at sunset, and most have a Song of the Sword ceremony after dark for layfolk. It is also expected that at least once a tenday worshipers of Tempus spill a few drops of blood (preferably their own or a worthy foe's) and sing the Song of the Sword in Tempus's honour. The ritual performed by most of the faithful is a prayer for valiant performance and survival in the fray ahead, made to their war deity over the weapon the praying being most often fights with. If a new weapon comes into the believer's possession before a battle- particularly in the form of hard-won booty- it is taken as a sign of Tempus's favour, and this weapon is the one used in worship. Tempus's clerics usually multiclass as barbarians, divine champions, or fighters. Most tend to be battle-minded male humans, although others are also welcome.

How many clerics of Tempus are engaging in any of those mentioned rituals? Holy days? And so on and so forth. Even a level 1 cleric should be spending time doing things of this nature. One thing to note especially is EVERY Deity has a time for prayer in which you gain your spells, have you considered waiting to rest until that time of day and RPing out the event of prayer? This can add a TON of flavor to your character. Technically, if you're not engaging in any of the practices of your god, you would lose your clerical spells, just like paladins lose their paladinhood for evil acts. If it will help people to research their gods, we as DMs might start enforcing that. I'd hate for alot of people to have to go through Attonements

Now, for the cleric description in GBX terms. Clerics are a representative of their god. They help lead the faithful, discern many things (Wisdom is very important) and become speakers on their god's behalf in the realm. They are expected to follow the codes and guidelines of their gods above all things (Hence alignment restrictions) and encourage others to do so as well.

I notice there's a great many clerics with low charisma. A GREAT many. To me this makes very little sense. How can you lead those of your god's flock if you yourself are not charismatic in the slightest and counter charismatic in practice? Can you sway people to your beliefs and your god's? Can you imagine a cleric of Tyr trying to get people in a courtroom to consider justice if the cleric doesn't have the speaking ability to address the crowd of people?

The cleric to me is almost like an avatar in that regard. Sure they differ in personality and focus on different quality of their god between each cleric, but they still are the church authority. And RP should surround that concept. Gather people together and preach to them. You see people in your flock moving away from your god, it's your job to deal with that. Proclaim holy days! Defend your temples! Publically speak to the masses! Lead people in prayer and rituals! This is what clerics do.

You will find that as you work these ideas into your RP your RP will become much more rewarding. This is partly why I encourage people to stick to the gods of their races. Why? Because the above actions can become goofy with other races involved. For example, I have a Drow NPC some of you have met. Can you imagine a Drow being a priest of Torm? Even IF they were L/G? How could they lead Humans in prayer, or preach to the masses? You're more than just a follower of your god, you're expected, by your god, to manage their churches and orders and people.

You can also dig into lower levels of being a cleric. Imagine the real world. How many of you have gone to church/temple/or meetings and heard your religeous heads speak? Everything about them is surrounded with their god. They draw examples from their holy books. Dress with symbols. Their lessons in teaching come from histories of their beliefs. It goes on and on. This is what clerics are. And like I said, even 1 level of cleric in your build should be following that because even level 1 clerics can lose their spells.

We've been blessed with players who take the time to gather information for our Wiki on gods so you as players can gain from the information. Apply the information, enact the information, come to DMs if you need help with it, that's what we're there for.

GBX quoted in the above.

Kaizen lost his divine spell casting ability sometime in December of 09. He just got them back this month. And he was a druid.

If DMs started to watch the Cleric RP, I feel there wouldn't be as many of them powergaming the hell out of the class, and doing things they shouldnt. Yes you, Cleric of Illmater mass slaughtering Veritas every ten minutes.

[Thief Of Navarre]

If DMs started to watch the Cleric RP, I feel there wouldn't be as many of them powergaming the hell out of the class, and doing things they shouldnt. Yes you, Cleric of Illmater mass slaughtering Veritas every ten minutes.

The crying god has never done so much crying before his clerics came to sundren, Ill bet. Heedless slaughter and promoted boxing matches are hardly gods work ;p

[Jai_V]

Can I just point out something that kinda irks me?

Charisma is not necessary in order to be a Cleric/Preacher/Representative of X God. Just my point of view on this, but especially in regards to religious leaders, I place a higher value on deeds rather then words.

It's like the point I made to a friend a few days back, regarding Christianity. If Jesus were to come back right now, would he be more impressed with the Jesus Cheerleaders wearing all their Fish symbol gear and saying, "Go, go, Yay, Jesus!" and preaching the word or would he be more impressed with those who are trying to be more (allegedly) Christ-like (charitable, loving, accepting) and proving the word?

In most other regards, I agree that many people don't bother with the finer details of the divine caster classes.

[Kaizen]

In that case, Jai V, I'd point out that Jesus was much more akin to a Favored Soul. God lived through him, and did his work. Favored Souls don't preach.


The Disciples, however, did preach. Much akin to Clerics.


Clerics preach. It's in their definition. If you didn't, you wouldn't be a cleric, and wouldn't be granted gifts.

[Jai_V]

I'm not saying all Clerics shouldn't preach and proselytize, I'm just saying Michael the Mute Lathanderite Cleric crusading against the undead is just as legitimate as the Sundren version of Jimmy Swaggart.

[Kaizen]

You don't need to speak to preach, which is what I was pointing out. I'm sure Michael would show signs of his Gods work in anyway he could, and give thanks in a multiple of ways.

Not buffbuffbuffbuff grind Veritas, then decide when and when not to be conveniently religous.

[Thief Of Navarre]

You don't need to speak to preach, which is what I was pointing out. I'm sure Michael would show signs of his Gods work in anyway he could, and give thanks in a multiple of ways.

Not buffbuffbuffbuff grind Veritas, then decide when and when not to be conveniently religous.

That presumably^

I'd like to think I play a genuinly druidy druid, if a little erratic (but isnt nature also unpredictable?). It makes me want to play a cleric now just to play one well. Maybe even sit in church all day praying if there is nothing worthwhile to do ~ since is killing people really what most good gods strive for? Fine if your a cleric of Bane but you cant convince me the genocide of woodland creatures is favourable to praying.

[Jai_V]

[+Rep for effort, Kai]
I'll just have to agree to disagree with you, then. In my opinion, kicking ass and saying, "See what my Goddess has done for me?" is much more inspiring then, "And on the third night, she cast her majestic eyes 'pon the Weave she wrought in satisfaction."

[Kaizen]

Naturally, a little of both is in order. I'm not saying deeds are not louder then words (they're not). But if you go to church, the minister/pastor/etc not only preaches during the service, he offers what he can outside the sermon.

That's what a cleric does. I am just commentating on the state of some of Sundren's clerics in that they don't RP the class and just use it for GodMode.

And Clerics are preaching to the public, most of the public won't see your asskicking of the Veritas on display. They are going to be at home, away from violence.

So the Cleric brings his words and promises of his God to them.

[Thief Of Navarre]

As Kaizen said, a little of both. Divine gifts can be subtle, they dont have to be flashy affairs. The gift of kindness is something most common people can understand without a persistant light source attached to it.

[Vaelek]

I'll just have to agree to disagree with you, then. In my opinion, kicking ass and saying, "See what my Goddess has done for me?" is much more inspiring then, "And on the third night, she cast her majestic eyes 'pon the Weave she wrought in satisfaction."

That wouldn't be a problem, except the cleric that does this ass-kicking forgets what deity he or she is representing, why they had them asskick said persons and when asked about it, can only respond with, "Uhh.. Lootz?"

Having played a fanatical cleric back in the olden days that would actually get up and slap clerics of other faiths that shied away from being public about their deity.. Well, it's sad to see so much of it now.
You don't become a level 20 Judicator of your temple as a cleric simply by smacking a vampire and looking good on the recruitment poster.

Talking about your faith, learning the dogma and advertising the best interests of your deity is well worth the reading up on.
I know theres no cleric character I enjoy more than the one that can and will happily chat with you about their faith and the importance of it in Sundren, certainly as opposed to the "I serve so and so by occasionally smiting someone I don't like at the fire."
It's very rewarding in RP to have people know who your cleric is simply by reputation for carrying out and publicizing his/her god's works.

So by all means, fight your god's enemies, grind those undead if you're a cleric of Kelemvor/Jergal/Lathander/Ilmater whatever. But just standing around acting like the typical fighter until you put out a million mega-buffs and go to town, without so much as a word to represent who you're getting them from is very, very dull.

EDIT: As for the charisma problem, with all due respect to GBX, I'd rather see a low charisma cleric that advertised his god with a lack of social skills than the one with 14 charisma that hides in the corner, waiting to Turn Undead blast the wayward vampire all night.

[Sonja BloodRayne]

I play a straight cleric as most of you know. My Mara, luckily, does do some preaching sometimes, not all the time but some, ok once in a great while!! I'll try harder to get people to follow her god and join the Blades!! lol She does tell others that she must tend to her prayers and it is usually at the same time of day. I try to do that to make it more meaningful for her, I suppose. But I understand what y'all are getting at and I agree with y'all as well. But as for me, I don't go grind Veritas cause I can't for one on my own. Mara does her job, as in doing patrols and making sure the law of the land is being followed to some extent. But she does give a lot of credit to her goddess for almost everything she gets and does in her life.

[Redjack]

I personally envision the cleric in DnD as two different possible variations. My interpretations of cleric are holy warrior and priest. I play one as a priest that is dedicated to his god blindly without any doubt and is more of a spiritual leader who is concerned about conversions and carrying out his Gods goals. And another cleric as a warrior that prays to her god for strength to be used in combat but is much more selfish and seeks the gods divine powers more to serve herself, but does further her gods ambitions as long as it servers her wants and needs. One does the priestly duties the other performs what is required of her to maintain relationship with her god but does not go out of her way to be a upstanding Church leader. I could be wrong. But thats the way I play clerics.

[roguethree]

Clive is definitely never short on lip service to Bane and preaching the values of hate and fear.

[Kajae]

Clerics are not necessairly holy warriors, or fighters of any sort.

Most clerics are simply clergymen, as the name says, who tend to the business of the church. Think of your local priest/rabbi/etc. and just tack on the fact that their prayers will often have immediate, visible effects.