The Divine Caster Issue

[Root]

As I said before the balance is already off. Attack goes up but unless you are a caster AC does not. The D&D game advances as in all forms AC needs to be included. It sucke when every fighter you see has monkey grip and a tower shield. What is the best AC a fighter can get +11 from Full plate, +1 Dex, +2 RoP, +2 natural, +2 dodge, +6 tower shield, and +6 from greater combat expertise (if they are smart) 40 AC at max- 34 for the not so smart ones. When a cleric/ favored soul with all the buffs at 16th level can attack at a +26 +21 +16 and this is leaving out some of the buffs. The dispairaty is to big between casters and non casters. I hope that makes some sense.

People other than Stormlords use Monkey Grip....?

That's one of the most terrible and useless feats. Stormlords only take it generally because the +9 AC from their Magic Vestmented Tower Shield is worth the -2 AB and minor damage from their Str modifier.

Those people need a lesson about why 2h weapons do more damage than 1h weapons. It's not because of a slightly higher dice number.

[Kaeldorn]

I thought Stormlords used it to dual wield spears.

[Intrepid42]

By adding a feat that basically says 'take this to be more up to par with the fighting ability of casters!' you are only giving more reason to reconsider taking that Skill Focus: Diplomacy or Maker's Aptitude, because combat viability is important for everyone due to the nature of PW servers. The more feat options there are to be more powerful in a fight, the greater the disadvantage seems when you think of picking something else to use one of your 7 (or 8) hard-earned feats on. And that, I think, is not a good thing.

I agree with Kaeldorn.

Lots of feats is one of the fighter's advantages. Additional superior combat feats would help fighters, but would strongly encourage them to always take these feats to be competitive and lead them down a certain track. I would prefer empowering existing feats or adding free fighter feats as has been suggested.

One of the cleric's weaknesses is a lack of skillpoints (as is the fighters, of course). You can focus on combat skills (eg concentration/spellcraft), but at the expense of stay-at-home priestly skills (eg Knowledge/Diplomacy). It's one of the few ways clerics truly differentiate themselves, into militant clerics vs priests. Giving the priestly skills more playtime would highlight this differentiation more.

I don't believe nerfing core class abilities is a good idea, beyond a certain point (it has already been done for some spells, of course).

[Root]

I don't believe nerfing core class abilities is a good idea, beyond a certain point (it has already been done for some spells, of course).

When certain classes' key features are primarily unused or unsupported by the engine (rogues: How much use do they get from Use Rope?), and yet others are made exceptionally more powerful (the Clerics have recieved spells that stack in ways they don't in PnP, and can rest to regain them in five seconds every 10 minutes, instead of needing eight hours rest every day.) then you can't call it a core class ability anymore with regards to PnP.

[Intrepid42]

When certain classes' key features are primarily unused or unsupported by the engine (rogues: How much use do they get from Use Rope?), and yet others are made exceptionally more powerful (the Clerics have recieved spells that stack in ways they don't in PnP, and can rest to regain them in five seconds every 10 minutes, instead of needing eight hours rest every day.) then you can't call it a core class ability anymore with regards to PnP.

A fair call.

You are right, many PnP restrictions on clerics are not present in NWN2. Such as RP restrictions (eg tithes), the stacking changes, and the administrative limit on how many buffs you can keep track of manually (whereas the computer handles it all for you in a CRPG and you can stack to your heart's content).

To put it better, I feel that giving some classes more is a better option than making changes that can be perceived as "taking something away", even if the intent is to move closer to PnP. For instance, making +3 weapons/armors a bit easier to get would be preferable to editing spells.

[Root]

A fair call.

You are right, many PnP restrictions on clerics are not present in NWN2. Such as RP restrictions (eg tithes), the stacking changes, and the administrative limit on how many buffs you can keep track of manually (whereas the computer handles it all for you in a CRPG and you can stack to your heart's content).

To put it better, I feel that giving some classes more is a better option than making changes that can be perceived as "taking something away", even if the intent is to move closer to PnP. For instance, making +3 weapons/armors a bit easier to get would be preferable to editing spells.

I think gear could go a long way towards fixing these issues. In PnP, fighters have lots of gear to swap out based on their challenges and opponents, just like casters switch out their spells.

The only way that's currently happening for me is switching between my slashing weapon and my bludgeoning weapon if I encounter skeletons. Things like being able to change my Belt of Strength for a Belt of Freedom if I'm fighting things that paralyse, and more things where changing equipment makes you viable in combat, would for one make playing a fighter a lot deeper in terms of decisions, but would make the gear-dependant non-casters more viable.

That, and gear is easier to make than redoing a whole class.

[Lilene Jora]

A fair point, Root, about gear swapping to match a situation being like a caster preparing spells for an encounter...but it's just as much of a balancing act as tweaking spells then. Could easily lead to people that are immune to too much through powerful persistent items if what's available to every item slot isn't carefully considered.

[Gamling]

I think this was about the RP behind clerics, not the mechanics. Herp derp.

[Kangleton]

Shoestring plus six equals bicycle.

I can be off-topic too.

[Kaeldorn]

The main difference, Kangleton, is that you exclusively post off-topic except when you made the topic in the first place. Is it some sort of urge to distract people?

[mrgrey]

I think this was about the RP behind clerics, not the mechanics. Herp derp.

Yes, and I also was not aware that this server was a serious power build server. I chose a mage/cleric because I thought the Theurge would be an interesting class to play, but maybe it isn't that great in combat. You have to waste 2 slots on useless nonsense combat-wise to play it (SF: Spellcraft, Magic Attuned). Should I dump it and make an EK with monkey-grip, since they seem to be the uber-build according to someone above? Kidding - not sure why they are that great, you have to take 3 feats that overlap with each other (armored casting and still spell...they do more or less the same thing, why both?).

I was on a server once where instead of having belts of mind-effecting immunity or death immunity they instead had belts of mind-effecting save +3, or death +5, etc. That way the casters didn't get nerfed by fighters wearing gear of immunity to every spell. Are the +12 save caps true of NWN2 in general, or is it just Sundren?

Also, I take it from someone's post above that items are capped at +2 for protection enchantments (ie Nat Arm, Defl, Armor bonus, etc)? Even if you craft them yourself?

[Lilene Jora]

It is nearly impossible to get better than +2 gear, even with your own crafting. One could spend several months or more attempting to blindly find the materials for +3, much less 4.

[Thief Of Navarre]

If everyone playing a cleric type just sauces it up a bit when interacting others it will add a lot of flavor to Sundren.
Clerics can have a lot of different personalities but yes the player should take into consideration what his PC's god would expect of the cleric.
For example I believe if I prayed to the god of Hate, strife and fear everyday I would end up burning with rage inside all the time ready to explode into a murderous frenzy rather easily. The stronger your faith, the more you would struggle with controlling it. A church that focused on strife might have a hard time existing as a organization altogether. How can you keep everyone focused on a goal if you can't get along?
Perhaps thats where the fear comes in. Carry out your orders or get chopped into little pieces.

Cyric's strifeleaders are a good example of what you speak. They have to kill another high ranking cleric of their own faith to be allowed admittance into the prestige class. Alot of D&D faiths are self destructive ~ this one just caught my eye

[Root]

A fair point, Root, about gear swapping to match a situation being like a caster preparing spells for an encounter...but it's just as much of a balancing act as tweaking spells then. Could easily lead to people that are immune to too much through powerful persistent items if what's available to every item slot isn't carefully considered.

Well, since we already have people that are immune to too much (Meaning said divine casters), and I was leaning towards the idea of 'buff the weak, don't nerf the strong', I don't see how it could be any other way.

With careful thought in gear generation, it could still be kept that a Fighter can't be immune to everything (for example, make it that the only items that grant Freedom of Movement, or +10 saves vs. death, or high spell resistance, or immunity: Bigby's, critical hit immunity (casters get it at no cost, why not fighters? Screw rogues altogether!) or natural armour AC, occupy the same spot (amulet, for instance)). That way you base your immunities on what you're fighting and what you hope they'll use, and since you'll be using your natural armour amulet 80% of the time, you will be sacrificing some of your usual ability in return for protection against one of the many, many tactics that can blow a fighter out the water.

Personally I think it'd be better off if we just nerfed the strong, then so many more aspects of gameplay could come in (All of the spells requiring saves, PvP combat that isn't decided in one round (if not before it starts), etc).

NWN2 has always been that there are three or four 'uber'-ish combinations of classes and abilities that will trounce anything that isn't a powerbuild. These things are HiPS (countered by high spot/listen), Bigby's, Etherealness > Cleric Buff Chain, many of the no-save spells like Word of Faith, knockdown spam (less of a problem due to knockdown having a 12s cooldown, and the fact that characters able to use KD effectively are generally vulnerable to all spells), and a few other things I can't remember right now.

A pure fighter will be killed by every one of those but (maybe) KD spam. A duelist will probably be killed by all of them. A rogue might out-HiPS the HiPSter, but good luck doing anything against the crit-immune caster.

Or... You could just nerf the strong and remove some of the spells that are causing the need to rebalance every other class with gear. Everything that gives crit-immunity, for instance, so that rogues have the ability to actually hurt you past your DR and regen.

[Thief Of Navarre]

Currently rogues in particular struggle against 90% of the mobs (since a cartel rogue cant attack the cartel for experience) and a good 80% of the PCs (since they are all crit immune casters).
Fair enough rogues can SA high enough to pierce anything but premonition DR wise but if the enemy is crit immune anyway they may as well be level one with skill focus: perform. Same goes for weapon masters, swashbucklers and duelists!

Straight fighters can hit hard but dont have slippery mind, a duelist/w-master/swash's reflex save or the ability to suddenly have untouchable AC. *edit* Unless of course they are dwarven defenders in which case they can have the reflex, will save and AC with a bootload of DR and health ~ which is still fairly trivial compared to what a caster can do.