Caster vs Melee

[07paul87]

If it makes things rough for casters in PvP, I imagine mobs could be tweaked using the same methods. On that note, I'd *love* to see monsters grappling

I'm not looking for equality. I'd like to see the whole rock-paper-scissors thing work on NWN2. Ideally, fighters beat rogues, rogues beat mages, and mages beat fighters. In reality it's more like caster beats everyone, gains a level, and takes all of your loot.

[AsuraKing]

I actually think that another reason that there are wayyyyy more casters than melee people is because most of the more powerful PRC's are partly casting or entirely for casting classes. And most of the melee based PRC's are stealth classes but no one plays them because they get practically pointless after the goblin caves where theirs no more doors to unlock or very few chests to unlock.

I suggest creating more pure melee PRC's such as the Thayan Knight, Weapon Master, or Frenzied Berserker.

[nezzerscape]

This has been a disappointment of mine for some time; the weakness and lack of usefulness of a melee charter. Can they solo after 10-12, no. Are they useful in a party? Maybe? Come up against a different foe with say silver DR, yes you can pull out or sliver sword, like the cleric next to you. However, they can charge that one up! The fighter spent all his coin charging up his cold iron one. On an occasion thry can really do some damage providing their not running in fear (low will). I was sickened that on the great rescue of the priestess of Sune, Elandra ran in fear like 4 times. Not doing much damage hiding in a corner.

Most if not all casters have been good to her, aiding and warding. There have been several time when I receive a [tell] that they are forgoing protecting themselves to buff me up more. Those are proud moments in a fighter’s career when they are thought to be more useful buffed than the caster buffing themselves (thanks O’mii and Tigen).

I do not care what anyone says, Its NOT a low magic world but a low magic ITEM world! I understand the intent of a low magic, but reducing the items alone does not accomplish this.

I do not wish to nerf casters for sake of melee characters. So my general thoughts are aid melee characters in what they excel at doing damage and taking it. I read in another post of how melee charters do not take advantage of the feats that are out there for defense… If a melee took enough feats to be “ok” on will saves, etc. there would not be as much left for the fighting feats… their purpose in life! There are two feats (that should be allowed as bonus fighter feats) that are place to aid fighters, thank you staff for those.

Where are enchantments out there to beef equipment to almost caster enchantment level…how ever, even of the fighter won the lotto to pay for such an item, a special request is required to get the components. Yes REQUIRED! Most, if not all, require essences that can not be found adventuring.

While leveling is not the name of the game (RPing is), it does show the inefficiencies of the class though. Playing a fighter primarily (over 24 days of play time) I have been with many ongoing groups/parties. The reason for so many is because they soon all out level the fighter going into places where the even buffed the fighter has little chance of making a difference / surviving. Most of the charters I did the Viridale with have been level +20 for some time. I know of a few of them hit level 20 when she was still 16. That is 20% more levels or 58% more XP.

Thank you all for the input and math behind some of the posts. I think there has been enough to show the inefficiencies of a melee classes compared to caster classes on this server. I do not know the proper way to rectify this, of one that would not cause a lot of development (time that should be spent enhancing the server for everyone).

Perhaps the following:
• more special fighter feats (though it limits the feats that are taken that makes a fighter a fighter and does not help those melee fighters that has struggled to reach the level there at)
• fighter only equipment (only to be used by certain level and above to weed out the take one level of fighter to gain access to it)
• better and available gear (I love to work to get something but having to drum up a quest is silly)
• tweak the system so that times are more like PnP (been discussed and would require a fair amount of work thus not really doable but worth mentioning)

Thanks for taking the time to read,

Nezzerscape

[Seheren]

I am inclined to agree with some of the others posts about item strength being the best way to help the Melee classes. I think more items that give bonus feats and +AC and +enhancement bonuses, would be the best way to help the fighters and such. I have seen items with bonus feats like mobility and darkvision. Perhaps more items with restrictions for melee classes only that grant other useful feats/bonuses to help against mobs and other PCs. Also perhaps more items that grant +STR +DEX for the melee types. Some of these items may already be available in some faction store I havent seen but it would help if they were available without being in a specific faction. I feel it is less about making another class weaker as making the fighter stronger.

[caterpillar]

.... I think more items that give bonus feats and +AC and +enhancement bonuses, would be the best way to help the fighters and such. I have seen items with bonus feats like mobility and darkvision. Perhaps more items with restrictions for melee classes only that grant other useful feats/bonuses to help against mobs and other PCs. Also perhaps more items that grant +STR +DEX for the melee types ....

I would dare to suggest a different approach. If there shall be items granting more AC and STR, etc., to weapons or armours for fighters, it won't help. Clerics just take their 1-3 .. 5 or whatever level of fighter and the situation will be the same. They will be overpowered again compared to the fighter.

I would prefer to change or add new feats for fighters (or pure meele fighting classes as Barbar or Weapon Master). I think slight damage reduction for fighter on lvl 12 and above? Or instead of +2 damage for the Weapon Specialization make it +4? But all of this just for fighters on the higher level to avoid the situation, that cleric takes few fighter levels to reach these feats.

What a briliant idea, was it my own? Oh ... it was!

EDIT:

Or add some feats giving them some magic resistance, something like Mage Slayer Feat, Improved Mage Slayer, Epic Super Undefeatable Wizzard Hunter Killer, for high levels of these meele classes.

[Seheren]

New feats could go a long way. Though as much as it would be nice, I would have to say I dont think giving free DR to the fighters is right. Perhaps with certain feats/levels fighter as pre-req then a feat that granted 4/- or something.. Somewhat like the Dwarven racial feats. Though you can only take so many feats.

[nezzerscape]

I am inclined to agree with some of the others posts about item strength being the best way to help the Melee classes. I think more items that give bonus feats and +AC and +enhancement bonuses, would be the best way to help the fighters and such. I have seen items with bonus feats like mobility and darkvision. Perhaps more items with restrictions for melee classes only that grant other useful feats/bonuses to help against mobs and other PCs. Also perhaps more items that grant +STR +DEX for the melee types. Some of these items may already be available in some faction store I havent seen but it would help if they were available without being in a specific faction. I feel it is less about making another class weaker as making the fighter stronger.

I hope that I did not come avrossed as just adding +4... to a weapon. I love the idea of blonus feats. i have seen them in one of the faction stores. If feats items were the way to go then I would like to see them added to things that are not a limited to a weapon. Two fighters on specialize in long swords one in the bastard. but the feat in a ring so both can use it... or a gem.

I still feel that if a way to make a melee class beter is through equipment then make one good for certain levels and beyond.

[caterpillar]

New feats could go a long way. Though as much as it would be nice, I would have to say I dont think giving free DR to the fighters is right. Perhaps with certain feats/levels fighter as pre-req then a feat that granted 4/- or something.. Somewhat like the Dwarven racial feats. Though you can only take so many feats.

I expressed myself wrongly. I did not mean to grant the free DR on certain level. More give some options like:

Example:

1. On level 12 you can choose DR 2/- feat, on level 14 some improved one 3/- on level 16 something like 4/-

OR

2. ........ chose similar feats granting some kind adding more damage, better then Weapon Specialization in the same way

OR

3. ........ chose some feats granting some magic resistance.

Something like choosing your path. You could be fighter who could endure more then others, or the one who deals more damage, or the one who's proficient in facing magic spitting enemies. Of course the numbers and levels should eventually consider some WB.

[caterpillar]

Buut, now I realized that if you improve fighter, then the rogues will cry in the same way and what we poor archers? It has no solution! I give out more of my briliant ideas, because it has no solution. It can't be solved .

[Zoberraz]

I think 4th edition did it right in this regard: the buffs spells - as we know them - are mostly gone... for the most part replaced with effects which provide a character improvement within the round, until the end of the next round, or until the end of the encounter for more pivotal 1/rest powers.

Now, wether you like 4E or not is irrelevant. What I do know is that it was generally not practical for my cleric player in my 3E campaign to go and buff himself to demi-god status. Usually, circumstances in a PnP dungeon do not accommodate that. There were some spells my PC casters could use at the start of the day that would last awhile, but they weren't combat pivotal usually. The stronger buffs they used a handful of right at the prelude of a fight and then they went in.

It might be an unorthodox suggestion, but something which might enhance the PnP look-and-feel of the caster classes could be to simply limit the number of active buffs they can have at one time on any character. Because, really, what people seem to be in the most opposition to is how casters can buff themselves up to demigod status and be nigh unstoppable then. The beef against them isn't just that they have 'good spells' in the first place.

I make no claim that this is a refined suggestion, or of understanding the work required to have such scripts going, but say every character can be layered with a maximum of 3 buff spells... I could see that mitigate some of the advantages the casters have while not depriving them of their good spells.

There'd be some inherent strategy required in those spell choices if the number of buffs you can layer is limited.

A wizard could still have Greater Stoneskin, Immunity to Fire and Fox's Cunning... but then, that means not having Greater Resistance, Deathward, Greater Mage Armor, etcetera. It would all depend on what that wizard thought was important to have at that point in time.

A cleric by the same way would have several powers he'd need to choose out from. Oh, he could go with Freedom of Movement, Stone Body and Deathward for survavibility... but then, that'd mean he'd not be using a Persistent Prayer, Extended Bull Strength, Greater Magic Weapon, etc...

It'd likely enhance the use of brief spells such as Mirror Image, Haste, Tenser's Transformation, Battletide, Storm Avatar (though any buff spell used, even if brief, would in turn shove out one of the buffs that was already applied) due to their more 'spur of the moment' usefulness.

Having a set limit, my suggestion presently being 3 (and seeing a new buff spell replace an existing one), would also make it a lot more beneficial for a caster to 'spread the wealth' seeing he can only use so much for himself. At lower level, the impact of the buff limit would likely be minimal... but as a caster's spell list expands, that limit would become more pronounced.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I must admit thats a really good surgestion!

[chupacabra]

Thanks for that great post Zoberraz!

I seem to remember Phantom Lamb making a post a while back suggesting something similar--a limit to how many buffs could apply to any one creature at any one time.

Believe it or not, I've thought about that post many times since, and I think a system like that would be amazing!

Not having one iota of what would be required, I would imagine that unless there is some sort of uberscripter who surfaces with some genius of way to do it, it would mean serious amounts of work for our brave dev team.

Still, I think such a system would go a long ways to balancing PvP. I think the unfortunate side effect could be that for PvM purposes, the module would have to be significantly tweaked to suit such a drastic overhaul; at present it seems to be balanced with a certain level of buffer-to-melee combo in mind (which is sometimes subverted by clever solo casters, hence part of the main reason for this discussion).

Despite the time and work it would take to implement, considering what good it would do, is it considerable?

[Root]

Limit # of spells on a creature

Sounds tricky to organise, and would likely require the whole module to be rebalanced.

I mean a Fighter only allowed to be given three buffs is little more than said already weak fighter with, say, Death Ward, Bulls Str and GMW.

[Zoberraz]

Sounds tricky to organise, and would likely require the whole module to be rebalanced.

Organize? Perhaps. The scripting of a roulette of registered spell effects based on what I've learned at the university over C programming doesn't make me feel that this would be so out of reach of a professional programmer like GBX is.

Balance-wise, I strongly believe we'd still be good because this would only tightens the upper extreme of the possible power levels player characters could reach. Your fighter still retains the advantage of a full base attack and feats - with less buffs spells to bury those class features in, does he really look that weak in contrast to the cleric anymore?

For example, my character Maia is a ranger can has been able to solo in the outdoor regions of the Mossdale since she was level 16. With full BAB, a bow, and her spells of choice being Longstrider, Barkskin and Aid she's been able to cautiously negociate the zone. She can't solo through a dungeon-zone, though, the way characters such as Cirion and Kharn can.

Considering that, I've a really hard time imagining how an Eldritch Knight like Peridan, a versatile defender like Cirion or a cleric powerhouse like Kharn would do more poorly by comparison. Both have a much better inventory of offensive and buff spells - nothing stops Kharn from healing himself, and Peridan from blasting things to smithereens... if anything, reliance on more diverse spells will simply increase and there's a sizeable repertoire of those (summons, attack spells, environmental effect spells, debuffs, dispels, etc). All have access to magical arms and armor just like non-casters do as well.

The limit in number of buff spells active at one time don't limit their potency - it limits their role versatility. They'd have to choose what kind of role they want to play in a fight before diving into the fray, but they'd still be able to do accomplish that role about as well as before. Then again, absolutely nothing stops them from saving spells to renew their protections, or change them to better suit the situation. Isn't that, after all, what PnP players do?

[Sir Kharn]

I would just like to point out that Kharn is far from a powerhouse. Hours and hours of testing spell and potion combos are the reason he appears ( and when i say appears i mean it. i die at least once or twice a week) to be such a "powerhouse".
Many of his spells are combat orientated, he casts them right in the thick of battle. I like the fact that i can cast regen or extended regen right in the middle of all the crap to keep those on the front line alive along with battletide, recitation etc etc, he was meant to be a warpriest after all. I'll buff anyone who wants it but I'm not psychic so if you need something tell me. I have personally received much criticism in the past for the way i play him and i have no doubt that i will continue to do so but you know what? I dont really give a damn because i made him with a particular vision in mind and dammit i'm sticking to it .
What has happened to people using their heads when they make a PC? I always put great thought and planning when i make a new one and i always stick to it (unless i see something cool then the plan is out the window).
This thread is doing nothing but going in circles. There have been some really well thought out suggestions in here but its just whipping a dead horse i think. I trust The devs, they are all working their asses off for us and i'm sure that with the stuff coming down the pipe its only going to get better.