Sweet! I'm Level 15! NOW I Can Be Evil!

[Phantom Lamb]

I know, I just want something where I can solo to a high level, talk shit to people ICly, then kill her/him off'

This is an in-game quote a DM overheard. I know most people understand this behavior is unacceptable, but I want to reiterate that it will not be tolerated.

Yes, we need evil characters. I will always do my best to support evil characters who create conflict in a fun way for all parties. But we do not need evils that only appear at level 15.

The DM staff is always on the lookout for players who abuse levels in character interaction. This is the number one reason I am so big on farming--good guys hanging around low level areas make growing up evil impossible. I'm a stickler on this for both good and evil.

If you feel you need levels to play an evil character, don't play an evil character. Evil characters must be craftier in many ways to get away with what they do. If power gaming is replacing your craftiness as a player, then I suggest you're not ready to play evil. We are on the lookout for this stuff.

Thanks everyone--

PL



**DISCLAIMER**
Farming rules are not up for review in this thread. Please don't discuss your feelings about them here.

[Koski]

Technically you DO need levels to play an evil character, atleast on sundren due to the way its built. As highly group oriented action is the only thing available and not much soloing content is out there, evil characters are ofcourse like others forced to group.

The difference is, that when a goody character groups, his party can consist of anything from good to neutral, and they shun evil characters out (atleast they should RP wise). While evil characters rarely tolerate even the slightest presence of something they dont like (such as paladins as an evil cleric) or maybe your character is a "racist" on its own account, not liking anything non-human/elf/whateveryourraceis?

These people are often forced to go entirely against their aligment, their RP persona just to be able to do SOMETHING. Sure an evil can "fake" liking goody characters and group with them but then they're only really fooling themselves, as their character should have propably been neutral or even good, depending on how nice they act.

So I personally wouldn't really blame him for saying such things, ofcourse attacking people who can't fight back is not something you should do or which DM:s should react to lightly, but when the server doesn't offer much for evil before that point, then I'd try to think of what the server is doing wrong instead for a moment.

As an example I'd like to point out some RPotM guy I met on my adventures. I shall not name him (*cough*watergenasi*cough*) but he was evil, played his part out really nicely yet he had NOT done the goblin quests on the hills and was asking, on his own evil way for peoples help even though he was clearly high leveled (atleast lvl 8 on metagaming perspective, 4th level wiz spells and atleast lvl 1 cleric spells). In the end he was removed from the group due to internal dispuits. A class RP and he no doubt earned his RPotM title back when he did.

How he reached that level was propably either that he had friends who he could "grind" constantly with, or more likely that he had participated on numerous events which netted him vast numbers of experience and allowed him to progress. Still he sticks to his character and has prolly been unable to complete the quest till this day (if he really had it not done like he RP:d), thats how evil should be played, yet it also seems to mean thats the only way evil can be played here. Alone(, slow?), without the story of the server to back you up. Just grind and DM events? Out of which 50% if shunned by the DM folk and many of the players?

Either that or sit down idle and wait for other evil people to appear, which ofcourse you often wont notice 'cos they have to RP good people just to get in the groups.

So basically if you feel like playing evil, then you prolly dont feel like playing 'cos sticking to your character most often means you wont get much interaction unless you run into other evil characters (which you rarely do mind you, atleast not truly evil, only the "fakers" I mentioned earlier, whom which you can usually not tell apart from good/neutral characters)?

Rant off... just my opinion and I'm sure many disagree and many are better at RP:ing evil than I am, but thats just what I've observed on my travels (or then I can't read peoples RP at all, possibly the latter.)

[DireBadgerEntersRage]

Evil DIY

It all really boils down to what Kaeldorn said: evil characters, and by extention their players, needs to be smarter than the rest.

The world shouldn't be made more evil-friendly, it shouldn't be made easy for a character to murder others and worship evil gods and desecrate tombs and whatever it is that you do. If that is what you want your character's hobby to be, you'll have to do it when no one's watching.

However, let me point out that being evil is so much more than eating babies for breakfast. Have you ever thought of being selfish, morally-challenged, indifferent to people's suffering? Have you ever thought of doing little good for the greater evil or doing good by evil means?

I could elaborate with examples, but I'm unsure of how all the successfully evil people would feel about their know-how being revealed.

[DM_Equinox]

Who said that evil guys won't team up with good guys? How about them trying to establish trusted allies among the good folk, so they can backstab them later? Make them believe they're really good guys?

Being evil is about deceiving people.

Being evil is not about running around puffing out your chest and saying "Hey, look at me, I'm evil and I will kill you now for no reason other than that I can!"

Who says you have to let on you're a bad guy? The only problem you could possible run into is if a paladin decides to use detect evil on you - which most Pallies might not normally do without good reason, because it's incredibly rude.

[Silas North]

Evil is a broad term really. All it really means (imo) is that when faced with moral descisions, you will go with the choice that serves a dark purpose or the choice that serves you, even at the expense of another (although neutral characters can often do this as well).

One character I knew in a different server was an assassin (LE or NE, I cannot recall). He was polite, had kind words usually, paid his taxes, never skipped out on a check, and was willing to aid others on their little adventuring escapades. However, he had dark ties to the underground and when he recieved a contract, he readied his blades and poisons and murdered brutally and efficiently, even if he was playing cards with the target the day before.

After the kill, it was back to his mild-mannered 'alter-ego', just appearing to be an average man who knew how to wield a blade and know a trick or two about the shadows.

Evil characters do not have to go around kicking puppies and eating babies. Some build friendships and can even fall in love.

[DireBadgerEntersRage]

That is precisely what I meant.

You can even be evil and do good deeds like saving kittens from a burning house, just do it for the wrong reasons: not because you like kittens but because there is a good reward. Party up with good guys not because you want to help them but because you can risk their lives instead of your own on your way to that reward. Be Mr. Nice Guy and make everyone like you, so that later when there are rumours about a serial killer no one even suspects you. Form alliances and betray them later. All that is evil, as opposed to talking trash to people, which is only rude.

[Koski]

Who said that evil guys won't team up with good guys? How about them trying to establish trusted allies among the good folk, so they can backstab them later? Make them believe they're really good guys?

Being evil is about deceiving people.

Being evil is not about running around puffing out your chest and saying "Hey, look at me, I'm evil and I will kill you now for no reason other than that I can!"

Who says you have to let on you're a bad guy? The only problem you could possible run into is if a paladin decides to use detect evil on you - which most Pallies might not normally do without good reason, because it's incredibly rude.

Are you truly an evil person who makes good allies just to backstab them later.. when the actual backstab never happens (or happens at lvl 15 when you "no longer need them" as that person who quoted apparently thought, but apparently is not allowed also? :P) OR are you just fooling yourself and playing a good character lying to yourself about being evil? :P

I know there is more to being evil than eating babies, some don't even eat babies. Some are just plain selfish and only think of themselves, their own advancement, their own power etc.

I am just saying you can't really play out evil untill you can "afford to" do so. And just so people know, I am not the person who the DM refers to, nor do I play my character as babie eating monster. But I do try to uphold my characters morals and act accordingly which does seem to be hard, though not impossible and I have been able to complete the simple quests etc.

If you play your character as good and never play out the evil side ingame (though doing so alone would be kinda pointless too) then atleast I don't think you're evil and you should have picked up some other aligment better reflecting your actions and possibly rethink about your character. Maybe an assassin that is lawful neutral, and makes himself think all the people he kills are bad guys instead?

You can even be evil and do good deeds like saving kittens from a burning house, just do it for the wrong reasons: not because you like kittens but because there is a good reward. Party up with good guys not because you want to help them but because you can risk their lives instead of your own on your way to that reward. Be Mr. Nice Guy and make everyone like you, so that later when there are rumours about a serial killer no one even suspects you. Form alliances and betray them later. All that is evil, as opposed to talking trash to people, which is only rude.

All these things you say, describe neutral characters just as well, if not better. Save for the alliance forming and betrayal later, which could still be a quality of chaotic neutral. And if you never actually do the betrayal, then you're most likely the chaotic variant. I don't think people should pick evil aligment lightly and then not actually play it out (other than in their minds).

Now ofcourse this is no battle on what aligment does what, they are well described in numerous websites, game manuals and even the PnP books for those who have them. I am however saying that playing out evil gimps you on sundren, while faking evil might work. I guess self deceit is a beautiful thing in the end.

I would also like to point out that I am by no means a good RP:er, nor am I a good evil player, but I do have my opinions on how it "should" be done.

[Fezzik]

The evil player that I played didn't kill anyone, backstab anyone or the like. She was a manipulator; she used what she say to try to drive wedges between people. She used people to her own means, if that required working with people that were naive and daft about how the real world works, so be it. She was subtle and pointed out foibles in front of or behind peoples backs without hesitation.

[Koski]

The evil player that I played didn't kill anyone, backstab anyone or the like. She was a manipulator; she used what she say to try to drive wedges between people. She used people to her own means, if that required working with people that were naive and daft about how the real world works, so be it. She was subtle and pointed out foibles in front of or behind peoples backs without hesitation.

And that would be something for example a lawful evil character would do according to the descriptions yes. And if you did it right, I'd approve it :P

Then again if you were always polite and nice, never "used" people beyond that of helping yourself in an ingame pre-scripted quest (which I ofcourse assume you didn't, I'd like to think some people DO know how to play evil characters) , you could have just as well been a lawful good or neutral :P

Im sure many people disagree with this, but I find there to be a huge difference between something you think and something you do. You might think of killing annoying people in your real life, fake being nice to them, but if you never act on it you're not evil, you're just angry or jealous :P

[Fezzik]

Then again if you were always polite and nice, never "used" people beyond that of helping yourself in an ingame pre-scripted quest (which I ofcourse assume you didn't, I'd like to think some people DO know how to play evil characters) , you could have just as well been a lawful good or neutral :P

Unfortunately I have to disagree respectfully . I've seen some LG people out there that were rude and very strick - sure, they meant well, but had the diplomatic skills of a gnat! Unless your a CE psychotic, you can play evil without giving it away. As you get "older" you can drop a few more hints... or, you can do what one little hin and one crazy dwarf did; Die young after playing hard! -- I think most of us that have been around for a few months know whom I'm talking about.

And how can you really be evil, if you don't know your enemy? It's a prerequisite. Unless you have an enemy, you can't go around just killing people with out a reason (caveat - see phychotic; but if you're one of those, you aren't likely to live long if you're really bonkers). There has been at least one Evil person that infiltrated the Triumvirate and "helped" them up until the point where he turned coat and did some very very bad things. I'm sure he wasn't all angels and sunshine before that though.

[Kaeldorn]

Actually, I agree that motivations behind your actions determine what your alignment is for a very large part. What exactly you do also plays a role, but generally speaking most actions can fall within a fairly broad alignment spectrum.

The only sort of 'actions' that directly influence someone's alignment are, for example:
- Keeping your word, staying true to principles despite circumstances turning unfavorable, following agreements and orders to the letter as long as they don't conflict with the former (lawful)
- Liable to change your mind on the fly, willing to do what you normally wouldn't if it warrants favorable results, not taking promises too literally if things don't look like they're going to work out that way (chaotic)
- Standing up for others at the cost of oneself, giving what's needed and sometimes more than is needed if you can miss it, trying to make sure as little harm is done as possible in any given situation (good)
- Don't hesitate to allow suffering if it serves some purpose of yours and don't go out of your way to help others for no gain, taking what you can reasonably take without drawing too much attention (or making sure by other means that no witnesses can rat it on), use people to your advantage


Although none of this behaviour actually has to be shown, it makes characters more interesting and portrayed better if it does happen. Now, as for the evil bit, it will actually often serve your purpose not being too obvious about your doings. Always have some excuse handy, or have someone cover for you/clear out your tracks. Being 'plain evil' is equally boring as someone who never ever shows any hints of evilness at all, while still being evil. Part of the challenge of playing evil is to always keep your alignment in doubt, so only extensive efforts can lead to you being found out (and have a backup plan in case that happens). Bear in mind though, that infallible evil is not enjoyable either. Always keep some sort of weakness somewhere that is possible (albeit difficult) to exploit, just like the good guys should have their conflicting morals and loyalties.

[Phantom Lamb]

Koski, I understand where you're coming from. You're talking about an overtly-evil character. And yes, it will be extremely difficult to play that type of evil without levels. But everyone has to go through lower levels, and much like paladin / crusader types, I'd have a very low life expectancy for most whose intentions became public. If you still feel it's absolutely necessary, simply be patient. Levels will come.

Regardless, we can't grant special permissions to players. Again, I'd love to see more evil activity and players generating conflict without a DM around. But power-leveling then changing your personality will not be supported by our staff.

[Kaeldorn]

To add to what PL said: specifically getting into fights with other player characters for no other purpose than to 'win' and butcher them to get a kick out of it won't be tolerated either. As it's griefing.

As per the wiki:

-Players must have an in-character reason to attack the person. "My char hates people" is a dumb reason.

[kovah]

The one time I attempted and evil cleric on Sundren way back when, the first time that I teamed up with a paladin to run through the goblin caves he threw a detect alignment at me before we got through the first door. I wasn't doing anything overtly evil - was just being very gruff and staying a bit away from him...

I think another issue is that in the rest of the realms evil folks have an opportunity to simly go off and join an evil faction and work their way up there - like the Zhentarium for examle. They can be evil out in the open and backstab their way to greatness! No such luck here at Sundren.

But, I think you can argue that in *all* of the realms it's likely a tad bit easier to be evil than it is in this small corner - you have a bigger choice of who to surround yourself with.

/shrug

Just playing devils advocate.

[Kaeldorn]

I think another issue is that in the rest of the realms evil folks have an opportunity to simly go off and join an evil faction and work their way up there - like the Zhentarium for examle. They can be evil out in the open and backstab their way to greatness! No such luck here at Sundren.

That's actually possible already. The Legion won't mind you as long as you efficiently maintain order as they see it, so you can definitely join their ranks and do evil under the guise of law. The Thayans are a political powerhouse which is nigh-on untouchable, and they definitely have malign practices going on that aren't open for any eye to see. They're also able to outright threaten and intimidate people simply because they are important to the established government, so they will be more inclined to look the other way. The Wardens of the Vale nature-folk faction openly harrass people who disturb the natural balance also. An evil one in their group could actively seek out civilisation to terrorize it, and his peers would still cover for him.