Sweet! I'm Level 15! NOW I Can Be Evil!

[kovah]

Oh, I know that. And if I was writing a book my evil char would be evil'in it up through the ranks of those factions. Problem is, writing books about my char doesn't tend to net enough exp to level up in-game. I'm still forced to associate with "real" folks and as such have to mask who I am to a certain degree.

If those factions had a ton of "real" folks in them and we could all group together and backstab each-other that would be one thing but Sundren, I think, leans much more towards a non-evil society as far s their "real" players are concerned.

[Koski]

I'm glad to see atleast some people have understood the point I was trying to make, thumbs up to phamtom and kovah

And yeah, the point is that currently, Sundren makes it relatively impossible to play an openly evil character that the switching aligment/acting at high level is the "natural" choise, expecially for people who play on different timezones than the vast majority or if they have some big characteristic they want to play out (see below 1.).

I for example have been trying to play my Thayan born wizard as a "racist" of some sort, who dislikes other races than humans. Then I am all alone travelling and I notice I can't do anything, fair enough. I click "p" to see who is online to possibly play with and there is "Elfina Leafrunner" and "Moradius Bronzehammer" "McBilbo Halflingfoot" and "Much the Stupid" .... and I logout.

1)

Maybe it is just me, but I dislike having to go out of character just to be able to adventure. Sure my character can tolerate them up to a point, but when my party is about to consist out of non-humans AND they're all good and fuzzy I find it self deceit. And my character ISN'T even openly evil, just openly intolerant. Let alone finding a group consisting of paladins who decide to throw detect evil :P

As a note I'm not a racist IRL, I just dislike people of other colors and religions.... J/K O_o No but like, I tried going out of character just to explore and quest once and it felt wrong My moral evil compass is against being good. Hell I've even tried to "not" play my wizard with my real life friend who also plays here just 'cos his char is a halfling :P damn him for making one. Did play with him once as some people might have noticed from the bugs section. THOUGH! I showed that little creep by making my Bears Endurance end up right after we had killed our pray <insert insane laughter here> ...

[Phantom Lamb]

Let's not have this turn into a critique of Sundren's playerbase please. We won't force people to play more or less evil, or be more "realistic" in character flaws and personality. If they want to play carebear, it's up to them.

We've heard a few points of view at this point--thank you for sharing. Let's be sure we're not drowning out other voices.

[Lothoir]

I made Richard Darkholme about a year and a half ago when warlocks were running rampant across the server. Nobody trusted them so Richard took status enhancing invocations and NEVER used anything that would be noticeable. He also began amassing friends, and then the Helmite Inquisition began, hunting down and killing all known warlocks on the server. This is also when Richard made his first friend in Sundren, the elf warlock Alyrian.

Although no one knew Richard sustained himself on the powers of the Hells he's not one to take chances so he began an adventuring company composed entirely of paladins and clerics. He used this group to go out and scour the land of a very specific type of evil, followers of dark gods that his own dark deity had a grudge against. And then when a high level Inquisiter NPC 'felt' Richard's aura guess who had a small army of paladins jumping to testify on his behalf?

Richard was aquitted within a day, and this coupled with the proven innocence of a gnome that had been accused of theft by a well-respected paladin of Torm cast the Sundren legal system into doubt.


When an imp appeared before Richard offering him a deal to help the Hells traffic in Sundren souls Richard jumped at the opportunity, but managed to keep it secret.

When Alyrian was getting possessed by his warlock mother's soul trying to escape Hell Richard teamed up with Hano Fetten, the holiest of the holy paladins, to bind Alyrian's mother away. Richard didn't do it just because he had been trying to turn Alyrian to his dark god and didn't appreciate the competition, he did it because Alyrian was his first friend. And all the while he was plotting and feeding information to the paladin, Richard appeared to be complacent with Alyrian's mother knowing that if she ever came back she would attempt to ally with Richard again, even if this meant he could never tell Alyrian he hadn't betrayed it.

Currently Richard is enjoying the company of Icemaidens, Banites, and Demonologists.

So in short, it is quite possible to make a well-rounded evil character from 3 to 15 that is engaging to play the entire time without having to compromise your evil, because an evil alignment shouldn't restrict how you play any more than a thermometer restricts the temperature outside. Alignment is an indicator. I've gotten some good points and some bad points by DM's, that's ok. No one believes they are evil. They are just trying to do the right thing as they see it, and the rest of society needs to either be educated, or get the hell away from them.

I'd also like to point out that as a warlock, it is impossible to solo nearly anything until level 16 or so when you can turn into a cornugon. Richard could solo goblins, but nothing else. I bring this up just to show that you don't need an ubertoon of pwnage to do well as an evil character on Sundren. Just look at some of the other evil characters in Sundren, namely Nocte Tempore and Zack. (You could also look at the Banites, but clerics in DnD ARE ubertoons of pwnage :P)

Addenum: And PL, not that my time in the Whitepaw wasn't fantastic, it was, but Richard didn't get up to much evil back then...except for hunting down a terrified goblin for sport in the Mossdale, but goblins aren't people!

[Subal]

i think there has too be a balence made somewhere, as i the arguement can be seen from both sides. The problem with not being evil till your higher is a pain in the ass for the reasons already stated, *no one too group with*, always being hunted by higher level characters, yada yada.

This is why there are very few evil characters on the server though, no one wants too try and play a character that is going too be hunted down by people they cant possibly defend themselves against.

Granted having the odds stacked against you is often much more fun and one of the reasons i play alot of nutty characters that do some very evil things. but as an example, when gromlin was in disguise and had corvus , and morrison on the hill defending , the people oocly' contacted a entire army. This is why many things cant be done, is when such things happen they get ooc. We try too have a small fight good vrs evil, but it gets quickly out of control as the good guys really dont have something like this happen. *hence very few bad guys*

Its been a long time since many of the old evil characters walked the sundren ground that could make the goodie's quake in there boots and cry for there gods , perhaps its time a few of them make a triumphant return?

As a side note i belive the odds are somewhere in the 1 - 6 ratio maby more by now, but those are hardly agreeable when the goodie little boy's and girls are usually the more powerful of the players on the server.

ps: if you were involved with the fight with grom and the veritas take no offence too what i said, it was fun, although we needed a little help , you goodies fought well

[Kaeldorn]

I agree that it would be welcome to see some of the powerful evils of old return. But some of them only became annoying in the long run, when it became clear nothing the goodies could do would harm them (bar overwhelming assassination attempts with no proof of the target's guilt, which only a CG character would even begin to consider..)

[Peridan]

Landaren will always hold a special place in my heart as the big baddy of evil.

[Deathevn]

Well.. here is my two cents for what little its worth.. (damn canadian money )

Being evil in a server such as Sundren is complicated business. Firstly, ic aside, the last thing anyone wants to do is annex themselfs from the community, sometimes it is a hard balance to acomplish to bring evil to peoples lives (( lets face it, the good guys like seeing evil around, yin to yang. Being a holy crusader isnt as fun without having a skilled foe to face, eather martialy or mentaly)) and still be someone that people say hi to and like to see you oocly. While admitedly I have never had a problem with an outpouring of friendlyness on this server, I think it does run in the background of everyones mind.


Some of the IC difficulties people face.. well (( sub note, the evil I am talking about here isnt the psychopathic evil, nor is it the 'im only out for my own gains but kinda neutral besides that' sort of evil, I am refering to the man who intends to bring darkness to the world in a nice, balanced, thoughtful way)) depending on what level of IC you wish to keep, most of the cities aruond sundren are somewhat aligned towards the good side of things, there is no real hostle or 'gutter' city where people can skulk without a bevy of armed guards watching, and without a steady stream of crusaders around keeping an eye on things (( PC's and NPC's )) So it may be a bit daughnting in that alone . There are, of course, ways around that , but in some cases you have to be willing to suspend a bit of the scenery around you to acomplish your goals. The partying and finding people to play with has been rehashed in this thread, so I wont really say much to that.My stance on it is, if your minipultive evil, it shouldnt be a big deal (( so what if that paladin casts detect evil on you? He finds out your evil, but your still an important part of th eparty. Most paladins wont hunt you down with zeal unless they see that baby arm drumlette in your mouth)) most paladins will just look at you croseyed from then on, yay for apathy. I suppose as well, something that has not come up is that 'evil' style factionism.. well there isnt much out there. Lots of evil are soloists or perhaps red wizards of they, in that regard. I suppose that we can only blame ourselfs for that, unions of evil are in the hands of the players, not the game, Shame on us .

One thing I would go out of my way to encourage, is thoes people out there slowly weaving evil plots... get people in on them, not the goody-goody's of course, but other people who might have shady pasts, or just plain greedy mercenary types. The more people in on things, the more we can develop, deepen, and create plots that the good guys wont see coming, and the bad guy swill get a small thrill out of every step of the way. After all, perhaps I just speak for myself, but my big thing with playing evil is blindsideing, cheating, pilfering the good guys in ways they least suspect. Get out there, play evil, just dont expect to be evil overlord in a day, that takes time, months of planning, and other people confident in your abilties of being an overlord to be able to flock to your banner

[Lothoir]

(( so what if that paladin casts detect evil on you? He finds out your evil, but your still an important part of th eparty. Most paladins wont hunt you down with zeal unless they see that baby arm drumlette in your mouth)) most paladins will just look at you croseyed from then on, yay for apathy.

fix'd

But the one problem with this is that a paladin is bound by his oaths to never willingly travel with one he knows to be evil. He may not be able to prove your guilt on anything, but he won't knowingly consort with you, regardless of how powerful your guy is. And once word get around that your character is evil, most people won't want to travel with you either. Would you want to travel with and stake your life upon the goodwill of a heavily armed person that has been marked as a potential backstabber?

[Peridan]

Actually, that brings a subject to mind that may help promote evil on the server. Since most civilized places are ones subject to Sundren law (i.e. guards walking around etc.), why not make a place that in general, is lawless? Sort of a haven for all those nasty sorts that want to stab each other in the streets, that would make a paladin hesitant to step into, because the second he used his detect evil he would get a backlash that would probably give him a nervous breakdown?

This would allow lower level evil characters to have someplace to call their own, and to give them something that the good characters always seem to have: a home field advantage.

[TamurtheLame]

I have played an evil character and I currently play a racist character and I have had little difficulty.

However, my evil character was not necessarily a psychopath, he was the charismatic one that people loved and trusted. I played him a long time under cover and actually was very good friends with a certain paladin. I would always cast protection from good before I met and hung out with him and always fought against the evil and such. Everyone trusted me until I finally turned on them and captured three of the do gooders - one of them was the paladin. My point is that I partied with everyone, was everyones friend, and I was chaotic evil. However, when I did come out of the "closet" everyone knew I was chaotic evil, was a Banite, and was marked, so it did become very difficult - but he was 15th level then and it was a bit easier. Therefore, I do get your point about being overtly evil and having a tough time, but you don't always have to be overtly evil until you deem it time.

My current character is an elf, by nature racist against most other races and he plays it to the hilt. He especially hates humans and will tell them to their face. He also trusts hardly anyone unless you are an elf. However, he has come to tolerate a few humans who have shown through action their loyalty and such. He is level 15 now, but at lower levels, much lower, he didn't party with too many people and only elves for a long time. As an archer, he was able to survive many times solo - with skill and luck he made a few levels then started to tolerate other races because of their actions. He is still racist and hates most humans, and even tells his human "friends" he still pretty much detests them, but they seem like "nice" people. Of course, his bow is pretty lethal, so a lot of people tolerate him probably because they need his support in tough spots

I guess bottom line is you can play your character and stick to your RP and still do well in Sundren if you do it right.

[Dayledose]

Just thought I'd add my opinion to this discussion.


I have been playing my character for a while on sundren, he started out NG, but has been in a slow evil decline. I try to rp this well and haven't had many complaints. I have seen the issues that folk have with getting groups if you are recognizably evil. I will say that being evil is hard, not just to rp but for myself I tend to have to stop and think about what my chars. goals and motivations are and how he would react to what is said/done.

Given the fact that I have personally run into 6 or 7 people that have revealed to my char. that they are infact evil. My char. has options for grouping up with other "baddies" to go and behave as we want. My char has also come across the difficulties of being in said group and having "good guys" come across his path. To me, this is the fun of RP, if you're evil, or working your way there and aren't known as such or folk don't know your intentions/motivations. It makes it fun to explain/rationalize/lie about what you're doing and up to.

I was reading another thread about fright night and read a comment about how folk are tired of playing the Lex luthor types of evil, that it would be fun to play that stupidly lucky evil guy. This I could see would add alot of diversity to the server, but requires alot of DM interaction I think, for all the reason stated above about playing an overtly evil char. Honestly though, how folk choose to play thier alignment is up to them. My char will think what he wants until it's proven otherwise. And IMHO alignments are kinda constantly shifting things. Ie: if you do something good +1/2/3 good shift, then it turns out that you did it to further your own evil plot/selfish motivation/personal gain +1/3/5 evil shift. *not exact, just giving an idea* So really I wouldn't think a char. would know for sure anothers alignment. *Except those damn pallys* eh, I'm rambling.

either way just RP how you want and take joy in others Rp after all , it's only a game

Respectfully,
The Dose Man.

[Redjack]

Then there is always how to be evil. Sure it would be easy to walk up to the campfire and say "My God requires your soul tonight!" and start slaying. Probably would upset people. Perhaps skirmishes would add some spice to a evening. Brief conflict with exchange of blows followed by quick withdrawl before too much damage is inflicted. There would be risk of accidential killings and the need of DM intervention to sort out the mess.
The game is based on combat so that naturally is the way interaction will end up.
You can only talk so much evil before it needs to be acted on. Which leads us back to killing.
DM support of evil can level the playing field for low lvl's and prevent a bad guy from becoming quickly annihilated and ending up in worst shape then when he began.

[EndsBeginning]

Hmm as this may be pertinent, I'm just going to leave this here. http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

[Allielliot]

That list was great.