Sweet! I'm Level 15! NOW I Can Be Evil!

[GodBeastX]

Racism and things of this nature have to be shoved down people's throats by DMs in order for it to hold. People tend to think racism also makes you evil suddenly. I mean, people forget the Dryzz't, even though good aligned, still has to keep out of surface communities of good people because he's still a drow It actually takes a lot to be evil and a dwarf that doesn't like elves, or elves who are fed up with humans, or humans who can't stand stinky half orcs, hardly puts you on the road to the barrens of doom and despair.

Also, I tend to see adventurers as exceptions to a lot of rules dealing with racism. You have to remember that in PWs players are unjustly used to represent the people. In P&P if our party decides to trust a drow, we represent five people in a universe who are okay with this one drow, orc, or demon spawn. Being an adventurer exposes you to more of a different side to a coin that a normal person wouldn't see. So though there's a tendency for there to be hatred of certain things, I see PC's having enough real world experience to know the truth about things that common people can't ever imagine.

I think, however, there is a tendency for people to see things too black & white or one extreme to the other. People also neglect to realize the actual idea that most people in the world worship multiple gods, and some of them evil. You think Bane having a higher divine rating than most other gods is an accident when divine rating is essentially how many people give "Worship" to you? Trust me, that's not all blackguards and evil clerics. That's common people who might want to stay off fear and hate in their lives, just like people who mention BEshaba's name in their weddings so they don't have misfortune, or the sailor who quickly donates to Umberlee church so as not to sink.

So when you're an evil worshipper of a god, people tend to turn their backs on you and such, but in reality, you generally should only get the highest hate from clergies that have direct hate for you. For example, Beshaba's clergy doesn't actually have that many enemies despite being C/E. In fact, you're likely to see the temple filled with every alignment of people trying to keep her happy. I think PW's lose this point with faith alot of times, and lose the idea that evil gods are a part of aspects of life too. Such as Shar priests being sought out when heavy loss is suffered in people's lives.

It's these views that tend to lead people into situations where conflict can't arise. I mean, if we just look at the world as Good and Evil we're basically being OOC, because in reality, people's are hated for their reputations, not their god's alignment. People don't just know every god is L/E, C/G, N/E, etc. It's more they know Maskites might rob you when you're not looking. Banites just want to rule over others, people don't even generally know much about Shar. Cyric worshippers are insane, etc. Some people don't mind those things and won't tend to have a problem with them. Some might just hold their coin purse close around know Mask worshippers, or just appease a Banite. People in the real world are a sum of their actions, not their alignment. Certainly a paladin won't tolerate a thief for long, but how many of us have friends who do things a paladin in a video game would crap all over or we ourselves?


So maybe letting a evil person slide for being evil OOC and take what he does IC as who he is might help people in the long run

[Anks]

I virtually agree with you in almost every point your made godbeast except for this.

It's these views that tend to lead people into situations where conflict can't arise. I mean, if we just look at the world as Good and Evil we're basically being OOC, because in reality, people's are hated for their reputations, not their god's alignment. People don't just know every god is L/E, C/G, N/E, etc. It's more they know Maskites might rob you when you're not looking. Banites just want to rule over others, people don't even generally know much about Shar. Cyric worshippers are insane, etc. Some people don't mind those things and won't tend to have a problem with them. Some might just hold their coin purse close around know Mask worshippers, or just appease a Banite. People in the real world are a sum of their actions, not their alignment.

In a fantasy setting things are black and white, and there aren't as many shades of gray as there are in rl. However this comes down to every individuals perception of good and evil. But there is also a common understanding that some things are universally evil but never good. Such as murder, in no shape or form is murder however justified be good.


And of the latter about individuals not knowing of gods is only partially true, as that comes down to the PWs culture, take a Bane as an example, I suspect the people of Sundren, the commoners not to pay their respects towards him due to the numerous well publicized acts done in his name.


Now to respond to Kaeldorns comment about huggles...
Agreed. Those of an inferior heritage who recive carebear hugs are subject to change, but I must add this, you must take into account how long they have lived. It takes more than just a few months of hugs to change a lifetime of scorn, evil corrupts the mind, body and soul. Especially if fueled by hatred and a state of apathy for life, such things one can never get rid off, whilest they can cover it up years from now, deep down inside their still that same guy who just wants to cut that babies head and drink its blood.

[GodBeastX]

In a fantasy setting things are black and white, and there aren't as many shades of gray as there are in rl. However this comes down to every individuals perception of good and evil. But there is also a common understanding that some things are universally evil but never good. Such as murder, in no shape or form is murder however justified be good.


And of the latter about individuals not knowing of gods is only partially true, as that comes down to the PWs culture, take a Bane as an example, I suspect the people of Sundren, the commoners not to pay their respects towards him due to the numerous well publicized acts done in his name.

I think you slightly misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying murder isn't considered evil or you should like murder. I'm not even saying that you should be cool with Banites. That's all face value stuff. I'm saying he's hated because he's a murderer, not because he's C/E. Nobody knows what his alignment is. In fact, L/G people can commit murder. They just might not be L/G after. In a PW it tends to be a "Let's figure out what alignment this person is". There's so much mild metagaming it'd make your head spin.

"I worship Shar!"
"The dark god?! HOLY HELL! YOU MUST BE EVIL AND INTO SECRETS! Don't trust this dude."

That pretty much ruins a great deal of conflict that could have happened with the player because the cleric been marked. The cleric perhaps could have influenced a few people to listen to his story, and had a compelling argument of why it might be good to give to Shar your worship. And, Ironically, the person marking them likely has 0 or less for a Knowledge religeon skill

I mean to try to clarify it further. You buy a horror movie about... we'll go with Aliens. Now these people get a call from their commanders to take a ship and check out a space station where they've lost contact. As a viewer you already know aliens are there, if you were in the movie, you'd think maybe their transmitters are down, after all, you lose contact with space stations all the time because they have Comcast cable.

In the movie, you notice that this guy is sneaking about doing wierd things, like going in dark offices checking files and stuff. People catch him and he comes up with excuses that seem lame to they viewer. You already know this guy is likely to be the villain in the movie and is probably going to get people screwed over... However... if you were actually in the movie's world, he might just be your boss who isn't any different than other bosses, and you have no idea you're about to deal with aliens and be screwed over by him. After all, it's Comcast's fault.

Getting subtle information can cause you to metagame even in slight ways you likely don't even realize you're doing. You can tell when people are metagaming movies, because they'll say something to those around them or yell at the screen words like "OH MY GOD! CAN'T THESE PEOPLE SEE HE'S UP TO SOMETHING?! IF I WAS THERE I WOULD HAVE STOPPED HIM ALREADY".

If you want to see what I mean? Let someone enter the game with 0 knowledge skills and in real life have no knowledge about D&D, or alignments. Then take someone well versed with 0 knowledge skills. I bet you see a TOTAL difference in reaction to the same exact situations, and I bet the person with no D&D knowledge is less exclusive to people with polar opposite alignments.


Anyway, I'm just saying people should try to take others at face value more often, keep into account what skills you have and what you would know, and also try to include people, even if you include them for conflict. It's much better to be a villain and have a crowd to announce your "I'll get you next time He'Mans!" to than to have to sit in hidden areas until someone comes to try to kill you. Obviously a paladin isn't going to travel with an evil person, but that doesn't mean he can't have disputes with them.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Feel free to ignore it if it gets in the way. I'm just chillin and adding to the thread

[Vala Rift]

I completely agree with you GBX, but because it's D&D we're bound by our alignments for whom we can worship. I don't even think it's an option to worship a god outside of their alignment selection (as far as the system is concerned). Sure, we can create a good aligned cleric that worships an evil god (for good reason) - but that is something we can only RP. Our character sheet is still going to say we worship the good god, correct?

Or can we not create a cleric to worships an evil god because the evil god would not grant divine powers on that particular cleric because the cleric plans to use the gift to do good? If that's the case, is the God declaring himself an advocate of evil? If so, wouldn't the people realize that only clerics who murder or steal are being granted his power?

I really am pretty ignorant on the subject, my only D&D experience is with NWN.
Thanks for the info!

[Azulfae]

On the things being black and white idea. It really isn't in this game. They put in 9 different grades of alignment and each one can be interpreted and played in several dozen different ways, race, religion, background, region, etc all coming nto the equation.

The best thing is that alignment can change. With time your character can go through all sorts and you might look at your alignment one day and say, damn, I used to be chaotic neutral and not give a stuff about anything and do what I like my own way, unbeholden to any god. Now I run an orphanage for the helmites, hmm perhaps it's time to talk to a DM.

Maybe you play a character that is lawful good and joins a city watch and enforces the law. Perhaps over the next few years of playing on that server you get involved in a little corrupton and eventually thrown out and shunned. Things get hard and you stick with the character. You knew enough criminals playing that character to turn the dark path. It's about survival after all, it's not your fault, they did this to you by throwing you out. Those bastards. Maybe, maybe at higher levels you find yourself requiring an evil shift.

This is just good roleplaying. The abuse is when someone is playing a good aligned PC and is blatently building them level by level, skills and feats to become a blackguard or assassin. Suddenly they hit level (lets say) 15 and suddenly it's all, DM can you change my alignment I just murdered a half dozen people I'm a really baddun I am yep.

That is what this thread is about right?

If you don't want to be nice to a Juggra beacuse you see the face of an orc on him, then don't be nice to him. He is violent with some hideous tendancies and a lack of understanding of his own strength. He 'is dangerous' for all the reasons you might fear. Call him snout, don't buy his ore, gag when he walks buy but don't assume he is smart enough to understand you and be affected by it. His heart is gold and he cares for his friends. This one virtue holds him on neutral between good and evil. Juggra would never rob you or stab you in the back. It's not honourable. The beast has honour? I think you'll find most orcs do. Orc society is violent and based on strength. Without the instinct to give respect where it needs to be given, an orc is not going to last long. That doesn't mean Orcs can't be chaotic though. You give an orc a set of rules or laws to live buy and they will just cock it up. They are too stupid. They do know when to say, yes boss and bow their head though. After cocking up.

In my opinion, chaotic and lawful are easy alignments to pick. Good and evil are hard though. They are not fickle alignments. Most people should be playing neutral. It's just because of misconceptions about deity or race they are whacking themselves in there as good or evil and to be honest it's not being played.

You don't have to be the exact same alignment as your deity, even if you are a cleric. It is quite acceptable and in the rule books to be certain shifts away from the base alignment.

Chaotic good deities can have Chaotic neutral worshippers, Lawful evil deities can have Lawful neutral deities. etc etc.

It's even acceptable that you might be a neutral good bard or rogue who likes to dance the shadows on the path to becoming a shadow dancer and you pay homage to Shar due to your fascination and craft. It's Ok that you are good because your alignment does not actually matter to the class and realistically you don't have to be a religions extremist! You just pay homage. Maybe you never even made a single prayer in your life. There are plenty of people out there who have been baptised and likely only went to church a few times ever because school took them there for a carol service at christmas. They will still have their funeral in a chapel and prayers read. Some might think hypocritical and yeah maybe it is. There is no law about how devout you are.

[GodBeastX]

Azulfae, you're right man. But it's not all people who are good alignment that ask for shifts. It's usually evil people running around doing no evils, then level 15 they decide to "Come out of the closet". I dunno, I think people should read the Champions of Ruin book. It's really a great read for anyone playing evil or DMing for evil.

As for alignment shift, yeah, people should be open to them. But if you DM for awhile, shift someone's alignment. I gave someone 5 points of evil once and they quit the server. People hate shifts. Ask any DM who shifts alignments and they'll probably have a story for you on it

[Allielliot]

That is true GBX. I'm guilty of it sometimes,but only when i disagree with how my actions were interpreted. If my char is acting in a way that deserves a shift in his alignment then it should shift, but when his alignment is shifted for things that i consider appropriate for him then it gets a little irritating. I once got chaotic evil points for telling someone that i had never really met. " I"m sorry for my quick judgments before. I was informed by someone i trust that you were a danger to society. I"m not sure what gave you that reputation, but if you use your talents to protect the innocent then you have my respect.". Turn out the guy is a banite priest. My char had no idea, but the dm did and so i got chaotic evil points. I can maybe see the chaotic points on some level, but evil points for that comment?what is evil about reassessing your opinion of someone because you see them protecting innocents? Those are the times when i get a little irritated about alignment shifts. I didn't argue about it at the time. I asked for an explanation of why the points were given, and all i was told was that the points run on a spectrum with no neutral points. So, i just let the event go on. I feel like in that case however, if someone is neutral and makes a neutral action then they should just not get points. Giving a neutral person chaotic points for a neutral action seems like breaking the world down into black and white again to me. It happens and i understand, but it is still a little frustrating. things like this are usually 2 sided. We need to understand where you are coming from and be open to change, but at the same time you need to respect the basic parameters of our char and let them grow in a way that we can continue to enjoy playing. This really isn't meant to come across harsh. I'm just putting out my opinion. I love it here and you guys do great work. The fact that i am complaining about something as small as this just shows how awesome you guys are and how spoiled i am, but I"m just trying to give a little feed back of my player side experiences with this.

[Kaeldorn]

I wholeheartedly agree with Allielliot. Such frustrations come up in a significantly more noticeable manner after repeated occurences as well, and when actions that would logically warrant getting a shift back from whence you came for some reason aren't taken into consideration. And that's when people start speaking up about it in a more defensive tone. At least that's how it works for me

[Azulfae]

Bah we have all met our share of retarded DM's i'm sure. When these sorts of things happen you just have to get over them and maybe try and work it out with a DM you know and trust. You can't let one DM's personal habits affect the way you role.

(The above comment is in no way reffering to any of you guys... *cough* Sundren DM's have been awsome... even the utter raping I took from Unreasonable Doubt up on the Schilds last night.)

[GodBeastX]

I know I'm retarded. I have to be for some of the stuff I do XD I only shift people now if I give gigantic warning before actions and especially if I think they're trying to maintain their alignment. Usually get an OOC message like "(( If you go ahead with this plan, I just want to warn you, it could result in evil points" or "(( You're a cleric of XYZ, casting spells like Create Greater Undead will get you a shift toward evil."

My favorite was the last warning I gave to an evil person, they replied "I'll just burn an orphanage afterwards or something." I lol'd.

The guy who quit the server though, he didn't think consorting with Demons was evil if it was for a good outcome, which is specifically outlined in multiple D&D books as being evil XD

But I feel your pain, Allielliot. I really do. Hence why I always shift for only LARGE actions I witness and also warn for it. I don't care if people lie, cheat, or whatever. Paladins I'll watch for evil actions a bit more, but they have a code. However, paladins are allowed to get away with alot in D&D and people don't realize that either. For example, if a guy is withholding information that you need to rescue people from harm, you can bust him in the face until he talks and it's not an evil action. People always think you have to be passive to be good

[Allielliot]

It's all good. all in all i love this place. IT causes a little trouble with school sometimes, but nothing i can't handle. You guys do a great job, and i really appreciate it. I was just attempting to put in a player's point of view on that situation. Now back on topic, people who either A) randomly become evil with no development, or B) are evil and only act tough when they know they can win against a lower lvl pc are irritating, but not much we can do about that. I like the fact that we can no longer see someones challenge rating. Now if someone is going around acting tough they have a chance getting a nasty surprise. Forces people to RP a little better and keep thier character more consistent in a form of behavior. Makes combat a little more interesting as well. If i understand correctly enemies no longer give a challenge rating either. SO, although we get used to knowing how dangerous normal spawns are, if we are in a dm event you never know how dangerous the person you are looking at is. (though that was sort of always the case. those "effortless guys that saul used to crap on my chars every now and then definitely kept things interesting)

[Captain Caveman]

Too many people take alignment shifts as a personal critique of their RP. Characters grow and change, I always took it as personal growth. Sometimes someone else's view of your character and his actions are far more interesting than your own. Most people tend to get a bit introspective after they played a bit, I like the shake ups to make me see my actions in the different light.

Shift away for me. Whether I just tortured and murdered a Paladin or my Druid just slaughtered pack of wolves without remorse. I like the feedback.

A one ( or even a 5 point ) shift is a way of expressing that feedback.

DM : " Plu you just killed and ate someone, im goona shift ya towards evil you little cannibal bastard. I don't care what your cultural background is "

Me " Sweet..."

[Azulfae]

Surely busting him in the face is Chaotic and not lawful? I mean if torture is legal in that region then face busting is lawful good for that purpose but if not, it's chaotic points surely?

Of course, it's usually good for a paladin to be friends with a chaotic good thug or two. So that he can turn his back and not look, at a given moment

[Fezzik]

I believe it's against their code to associate with people that are "evil"... not chaotic (you can save law breakers, but those grandmother killers, you just have to smite!)

[Iso]

I wonder how Kelemvor had been associated with Cyric while they were mortals.