Knock, knock.. Who's there?

[cmosier]

I agree that RP shouldn't mimic real life. I could drone on for hours about Sundren's sewer system... Where does that flow out, anyway?

However, if a person's idea of fun is being able to conquer every obstacle alone or with relative ease, there's an issue. Those little conundrums... Like... How does a law abiding paladin get through that locked door without dealing with a shady element... is kind of part of the game.

Personally... I see more people looking for reasons their character can't RP with some one instead of looking for an opportunity to do so.

[Valhalla]

I treasure fun over mimicking real life in my Dungeons and Dragons.

Perhaps that's unusual amongst a group of people pretending to be magical creatures with fantastic cosmic powers and big hunks of sharp iron, but somehow I doubt it.

[Fury]

Not being about to do something because you lack something specific = Life.

Fixed that for you.

[cmosier]

I've seen lots of of rogues open those locks. That's how they pull their weight. As for Byrun... he may need a little help when he does the Daily, but he knows enough shady people to get through locked doors. :-)

[Valhalla]

Edit: double posting D:

[Valhalla]

[...]

If your rogue isn't pulling their weight, that was a build choice they made. Just like a fighter could be built with a bunch of skill focuses and a high charisma and be vastly less effective in combat.

And there's a difference between needing a class like what you said you support, and needing help.

Byrun doesn't need Sandro to do the daily. Byrun needs help. I've seen two level 20 fighters duo it. I've seen a level 20 fighter tank it for 2 archers. Just like with Whurest - you don't need a wizard or cleric to beat it. Overwhelming force works.

Having to compensate for the lack of something = awesome.

Not being about to do something because you lack something specific = shitty.

[sonuvalich]

and sandro, sometimes you're just tempermental.... And moody. Do you need some chocolate? :d

Dafuq?!?

[Fury]

A PW should be a representation of what a "real" world should be like- and if you can't open a lock or disarm a trap, or don't know someone who can- you should be just as shit out of luck as the rogue who really wants to do a little solo adventuring, but gets dropped by a freaking bat. Or... anything that looks at them hard, really. Sad truth is that the class absolutely requires you to have a group just to survive. So, the average rogue is terribly broken hearted that you can't get into that room... at least you can come out with your skin.

And Sandro, sometimes you're just tempermental.... and moody. Do you need some chocolate?

[Saulus]

Haha.

[sonuvalich]

I'm saying this as a guy playing a fighter. There are things Byrun cannot do without a caster's help. That means I'm also shit out of luck if I want to do the daily and Sandro is in one of his moods.

Dafuq?!?

[cmosier]

The flip side of "everybody is here to have fun" would be the rogue who is mediocre in a fight and has to watch the super buffed warriors and their wizard lackey charge through traps and Knock every lock open.

Paladins are very powerful. There code is supposed to be a restriction. Good or Neutral rogues can be hard to come by. I believe "shit out of luck" is appropriate in this instance.

I'm saying this as a guy playing a fighter. There are things Byrun cannot do without a caster's help. That means I'm also shit out of luck if I want to do the daily and Sandro is in one of his moods.

The point is, sometimes you're just going to have to accept the limitations of your character or find an RP way to make nice with a rogue. The world shouldn't change for the character. The character needs to adapt to the world.

[Fury]

True story- the Open Lock skill is absolutely not restricted to Rogues. Anyone can learn it, if they are willing to invest the points into it.

[Doubtful]

Dungeon design should play a huge part in this, rogues and skill monkeys shouldn't be essential but perhaps they can make life easier (GBX's new spawn system and its traptrastic features should help with this a lot). Maybe having a mage with high mage skills will prevent (or allow) other options. RP skills and what not should be a part of the dungeon experience!

Requiring a certain class to complete something is a bad thing, having certain classes being able to shine is a good thing! Options are good.

Of course some classes will be able to do things that others can't, this should definitely be experienced in game or what's the point of even having classes or skills.

Of course, there's always the reality that after a few runs any puzzles, tricks or intrege just become normal, once you know the answers there is no puzzle!

[Valhalla]

That's a very PnP outlook - which, in the context of PnP, I totally agree with.

But PWs are subject to the whims of people logging in - what if you're a euro player and there aren't any rogues that log on in your times? Or what if you're a paladin and all the rogues being played are evil dicks? (Hint: The answer shouldn't be "You're shit out of luck." We're all here to have fun, not be dicked over because fate and/or roleplaying your character well)

In a PnP game you can get around this by planning for a rogue in the party ahead of time, or hiring a Rogue Cohort. NWN2 PWs are a different beast entirely, and I've never seen dungeons that require a specific class go over well in 7 years of PWing.

Requiring some Open Lock is another thing entirely - anyone can cross class or take Able Learner without too much difficulty.

[Fury]

Personally, I feel if you don't have a rogue, you should be pretty screwed.

Every fiber of my being wants to take this bait. But I'm resisting. Do you see how hard I'm resisting?