Knock, knock.. Who's there?

[BubbaCornbread]

I agree with Sandro, you could have the knock provide a basic lock-pick skill, say DC10 and then it can increase with your actual lockpick skills.

I also agree that you can take lockpick and open most locks in the game with a bit of dedicated skill points. Both of my characters took able learner, lockpick, and UMD so that they could be more versatile. Also, because I am in the European timezone, it is very hard to find all the right players to access all the dungeons, so I provide myself with the skills. Of course, they are not as good as other classes, but I can usually get by.

I also think that if you do make it so that you require a certain class and/or very high skill to access certain things in the game, it is screwing players that cannot find a party. Sometimes I am the only guy on the server, or maybe me and two others and they are either afk or doing something else or have a character way below or way above my own.

[kitteninablender]

In Pathfinder the Knock spell does this: You can open a lock without Thieves tools (Though if you have them, you get a bonus), and you make a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus. So Simple locks are a DC 20, Average is 25, complex is 30, and Amazing locks are 40.

In addition Knock only opens up to two means of closure. As a man who has lived in Atlanta, Georgia I know for certain that several places put two or three locks on the door as well as a deadbolt. It was a bad neighborhood...lol.

But now....*sets up soap box and steps upon it.*:

Knock is not meant to replace a Rogue. It's not meant to render them useless. It's not meant to be one more way for the Wizard to turn to his party mates and go "Ha ha, anything you can do I can do better!"

That being said however, that's the key difference in playing a Wizard vs. a Sorceror or a Bard. It's the Wizard's job to be a utilitarian. It's the Wizard's job to have enough variety in his spellbook that, depending on how he's prepared his spells, he is capable of completely changing his party role for the day.

If the Wizard wants to aid a fighter he has the spells to do so. He can prepare Tenser's Transformation, and Premonition, and Greater Magic Weapon, and all of that. This still, however, does not mean he is as skilled a Fighter as someone who has become a purely dedicated 20 level fighter.

If the wizard wants to take on a more roguish aspect he prepares Invisibility, Knock, Detect Secret Doors, and various other spells. He can EMULATE a Rogue, but he's certainly never going to be a complete replacement for one.

A Wizard will never out-blast a dedicated Sorceror, or out-sneak or out-lock pick a Rogue. He'll never swing as hard as a fighter.

Think of a Wizard as Batman with a utility belt. He has such a wide variety of spells that, at the start of the day (or night, in Batman's case) he can completely refit and re-allocate his spells just like Batman might change around the things he carries in his belt. Sure, he may always keep the staples: Batman keeps his Grapnel Gun, the Wizard keeps a Fireball.

But in the end, if they know what they are going up against, the Wizard has time to properly prepare. If he knows there's going to be a lot of locked chests, he prepares for such. If Batman is going up against Clayface, he takes along his Nitrogen capsules. It's not the Wizards responsibility to have all the answers all the time. It's his job to have just the right answer at just the right time.

Thank you. *Gets off his soap-box, prepares for tomatoes to fly.*

[thaelis]

I personally would not mind seeing Knock be able to open some lower DC locks, but I think I think I would still prefer to see locks guarding higher-tier treasure or in higher-level dungeons be something reserved for those who invest into Open Lock.

I'm of a similar opinion. I think that making doors completely inaccessible without a Rogue is kinda silly. Just give them a ton of HP and damage reduction 15 (adamantine reinforced!). Boss treasure chests though....yeah they should be impossible to break open without a Rogue.

As for making Rogues more useful make traps have DC's higher than 15! And make a script which randomly drops traps so you don't know where every trap in the game is and can avoid them with ease That'd be a lot more incentive to have a Rogue than locked doors which are just frustrating.

[Phantom Lamb]

You're all looking at this the wrong way.

The rogue should invest in UMD so he can use Knock scrolls.

[sonuvalich]

That is literally what I suggested, the spell adds ranks to the target's open locks, but since it is a trained only skill you still need to spend at least 1 point in the skill for it to be useful. Basically, arcane boost to lockpicking instead of the thieves' tools.

It could last like 6 sec/level and add a boost of something like 1/2 CL (max 10) to the open lock skill. That way, people who cross-class it and can't get many ranks could still get the odd door opened, without seriously undermining rogues.

[Laurk]

Having the spell add ranks to your skill won't do anything unless your character has at least 1 rank in Open Locks as its a trained skill.

[Fury]

So how about the knock spell adds ranks to open lock (similar to appraising touch but for lockpicking) something like +CL but without at least a point invested you still can't use the skill?

That's basically what thieves tools do.

[sonuvalich]

Haha.

The fact that Saulus is laughing at my ridicule fills me with confusion. Can't tell if ball-breaking or intervention...

[Laurk]

Knock is an old PnP spell and should not be altered. It should absolutly open any door thats not warded against it.

The way I would solve this is, more locked doors & chests. A lock shouldn't hinder your ability to go to dungeons. However it should hinder your ability to maximise treasure. There should be far more locked chests & doors leading to chests. That way a wizard, unless they prepare tons of knock spells (unlikley) will not replace a rogue. Sure you could have an option to bust down doors and break open chests, but this should also have a good % chance of destroying the treasure inside.

A rogue is a support PC who fills several roles in a group. One of most compelling is maximising an adventuring group's ability to make tons of coin in a dungeon.

Here's a great example: In a dungeon, you come to two locked doors. The wizard can use knock to open them. Inside he finds 5 locked chests. Sure a wizard might have enough knock spells prepared to get a few of them, but if you want them all, use a rogue.

Wizard with knock (willing to sacrifice combat for utility a bit)= extra treasure
Rogue's open lock = lots of extra treasure

Edit: The solution to making "knock wands" the end-all then is to just make sure the wands are expensive to make. That way even if you make a knock wand, while you'll replace rogues, you won't maximise treasure since it cost you a small fortune to make the thing in the first place.

[sonuvalich]

So how about the knock spell adds ranks to open lock (similar to appraising touch but for lockpicking) something like +CL but without at least a point invested you still can't use the skill?

[Fury]

Maybe I wasn't making my point very well, but I think we actually agree with each other. So maybe bullets will help

1). Knock is a silly spell. No disagreement there.
2). Opening locks should require an investment in the skill.
3). It should not, however, require a Rogue specifically, just the skill.

That way people who take Able learner, or dip some rogue levels (or both) can fill in if necessary, but the investment to do so is much higher for non-rogues than it is for rogues.

Ok, yes. Then we are basically saying the same thing. Rogues have other skills than just opening locks and disarming traps that should make them preferable to have around- but at the same time I don't believe I have ever made a character, rogue or not, that did not have at least a couple of points in open lock- every adventurer just periodically needs to get into something or somewhere that other people really don't want them to.

[cmosier]

Maybe I wasn't making my point very well, but I think we actually agree with each other. So maybe bullets will help

1). Knock is a silly spell. No disagreement there.
2). Opening locks should require an investment in the skill.
3). It should not, however, require a Rogue specifically, just the skill.

That way people who take Able learner, or dip some rogue levels (or both) can fill in if necessary, but the investment to do so is much higher for non-rogues than it is for rogues.

Agreed.

[Valhalla]

Maybe I wasn't making my point very well, but I think we actually agree with each other. So maybe bullets will help

1). Knock is a silly spell. No disagreement there.
2). Opening locks should require an investment in the skill.
3). It should not, however, require a Rogue specifically, just the skill.

That way people who take Able learner, or dip some rogue levels (or both) can fill in if necessary, but the investment to do so is much higher for non-rogues than it is for rogues.

[Fuzziebunny]

I am not certain why it is not good rp for the Knock spell to actually work. This is an in game spell. No one is complaining about raise dead scrolls taking away from clerics. Raising the dead is a cleric skill and anyone with UMD can cast the scroll. Heck you can even buy the scrolls in certain places unless that has been fixed. Why is knock different? It has been stated that anyone can put points in the skill open lock. I suppose I don't see the correlation that rogues are useless if they can't be the one to pick the lock. There are so many other uses for rogues.

Rogues have their place and they don't need to just open locks to be effective at their jobs. Nothing says they can't scout, disarm traps, or do any number of things rogues do in dungeons. If you feel the rp is limited then revive it. Stop rushing about and send out your rogues to scout. Slow down a little and rp the encounter. I would adore being in a group where the rogue reported back every so often on the enemy movements in a dungeon. I am sure not every group would want to see this. But I am sure that plenty of people would enjoy doing something like this often enough.

[Fury]

We are all walking a fine line between fantasy and reality. If this were entirely for fun, and without any realistic challenges, we should just be able to wish ourselves the richest, most powerful beings on the planet. And, well... that ends up not being fun either.

I don't mean to sound aggressively contradictory, here, even though I probably do. I just personally believe that each class and individual has their skills, and if you don't have them- then you need to learn them, or know someone who does. If you want to open locks, learn the skill. It's that simple.