Jail-Breaking our Hearts

[Silas North]

When Osclow was working for the Legion and caught a criminal, we (as in OOCly me, the criminal, and any other associated Legion players) didn't play the captured criminal off as convicted of murder unless the one they attacked was actually perma-dead. Since this rarely actually happened, the criminal was accused instead of assault and battery, which does NOT get you a life sentence or execution. Usually it's just jail time and/or a fine.

The fines were often hefty enough to make the bad guys more careful the next time around. And the beatings us more chaotic good types gave the criminals after they paid their fines and left the prison REALLY made them think twice. All in all, it worked out fairly well.

"No your honor. The ex-con tripped on his way out of the prison...over and over again."
Bluff roll: 60

Yes, it SHOULD be more difficult to be a lawbreaker in a lawful society (even if that does not necessarily include the whole valley), but I agree with Corn that it should not be any easier to 'die' via perma-jail than it should more traditional methods. If the victim isn't truly dead, you're not a murderer, just a thug.

Another thing to remember is that you should not ONLY take PC action or action against PCs into account. For every ONE PC that breaks out of jail, there's like 200 NPCs (and some PCs) that don't. It's understandable to give priority to news revolving around famous individuals or people you know, but they're not the ONLY people out there. 1 out of 200 equates to 99.5% efficiency on the Legion prison's behalf. Sounds pretty decent to me. Sounds like the Legion does know what they're doing after all.

[Doubtful]

Weregild should probably replace jailtime for a lot of crimes, replacing the property and giving some recompense to the victim.

A base value of say 500 for the assault and attempted murder (non perma kills) of another person or murder of a common person, adjusted by the rank of the victim and/or nature of the crime.

Causing the (perma) death of a Fated individual (a PC) should result in a judged (DM) trial to establish the nature of the crime and the guilt of the accused and hand out sentences up to (perma) exile or death.

Other crimes would just be fines.

[SeekerofKnowledge]

Paying a fine doesn't really get more RP either. It seems more like a "Badguy" tax that you pay to go about your criminal way. Bringing up the community service idea again to go with that, as nobody has shot it down as silly.

And if we got more news about those 200 successes the legion had, the constant PC jailbreaks wouldn't leave such an unfavorable taste in player's mouths.

[Silas North]

And if we got more news about those 200 successes the legion had, the constant PC jailbreaks wouldn't leave such an unfavorable taste in player's mouths.

If the staff reported every single thing the npcs did regarding prisons, temples, bake sales, etc. they'd have time for NOTHING else. There are times when you cannot, or should not, rely on the staff. Unless a DM says otherwise, it's best to assume a sort of 'norm' in regard to these kind of things; a 'norm' that is not determined by the PC minority alone.

Even an occasional post by a staff member claiming "Everything is fine in the jail overall" is time better spent elsewhere.

[Doubtful]

Pay a fine earned by killing engine run enemies, or tell a PC to go out and kill a set value of engine run enemies. It's the same result: value paid to the state via time spent killing things.

The rp value for both is pretty equal.

Plus there's cool value to be had in the manner of paying fines.

"1000 staggs for breaking that shit Davidson's face? Sounds fair, here's 2000 if you'll bring him over here again"

[SeekerofKnowledge]

But the community service gig would allow players that normally wouldn't interact to do so.

A guy that has to fight gnolls in Viridale for mugging people could be joined by a paladin seeking to do the same for love and justice. I just thought it offered more interesting opportunities than "Pay this much gold and then have your record wiped clean so we can rinse and repeat at YOUR desire."

I don't think it's a waste of time to get some faction feedback. It helps build investment in the world. *Attempted jailbreak was halted by quick and decisive action from guards* takes almost no time and would do wonders for moral.
*Veritas raid on Legion supply shipment successful, Mossdale front suffers from loss of suppleis*
*Druids save a cat in a tree, thank tree for assistance*

Nothing has to come of these, but I digress.

Saying a fine should be paid instead of jail time is still saying that the system needs to be changed. I don't personally care for that system, but it is a valid point that can be quickly and easily accomplished. However, as Cornuto said: that can already be done by PVP rules. Though it feels more like a gang fight instead of an actual police action.

[caterpillar]

... bringing up the community service idea again to go with that, as nobody has shot it down as silly ...

I don't know the worst worlds as "Community Service" in DaD, what is somehow medieval like? It just doesn't belong there ... so I am one of those people, who do not like the idea.

I think there are unsolvable topic like death, escapes from prison and some others I can't remember, because I have a bad memory. It's a game not reality.

[caterpillar]

Yet another note - punishment in the medieval style? Add lashing - the punishment Sile expected when she was apprehended and what she new, was comming from Centurio Blackwell, she was mentally prepared for it, add some public humiliation like being bound in the middle of the square, letting ordinary poeple to throw some rotten tomatos at you for thefts, etc.. I am not against the use of torture to compel somebody to comfess her crimes, when there was no forensics, it would be impossible to decide who lies and who's saying the truth and it would create some places for evil characteers in the rows of Legionnairs. Today as I see it the Legion is full of good, perfect guys, who do not lie, abuse power ot drink . And when they see a gorgeous cheerful young not so smart colleque, they immediatelly are rude and call her names. Like I said, odd soldiers one would expect the contrary, but that's another topic .

[Thief Of Navarre]

Yet another note - punishment in the medieval style? Add lashing - the punishment Sile expected when she was apprehended and what she new, was comming from Centurio Blackwell, she was mentally prepared for it, add some public humiliation like being bound in the middle of the square, letting ordinary poeple to throw some rotten tomatos at you for thefts, etc.. I am not against the use of torture to compel somebody to comfess his crimes, when there was no forensics, it would be impossible to decide who lies and who's saying the truth and it would create some places for evil characteers in the rows of Legionnairs. Today as I see it the Legion is full of good, perfect guys, who do not lie, abuse power ot drink . And when they see a gorgeous cheerful young not so smart colleque, they immediatelly are rude and call her names. Like I said, odd soldiers one would expect the contrary, but that's another topic .

We can tell when your lying. Its a fourth circle cleric spell and third circle paladin spell *nods*

[Doubtful]

And if we got more news about those 200 successes the legion had, the constant PC jailbreaks wouldn't leave such an unfavorable taste in player's mouths.

If the staff reported every single thing the npcs did regarding prisons, temples, bake sales, etc. they'd have time for NOTHING else. There are times when you cannot, or should not, rely on the staff. Unless a DM says otherwise, it's best to assume a sort of 'norm' in regard to these kind of things; a 'norm' that is not determined by the PC minority alone.

Even an occasional post by a staff member claiming "Everything is fine in the jail overall" is time better spent elsewhere.

This.

People must always try and keep certain things in mind, a key one is that the world turns even when the DMs aren't there to do it.

The port throngs with people as ships arrive or prepare for departure, goods are checked, loaded, unloaded or shift to and from warehouses. The city is a bustling hive of people who go about their daily lives with all the aplomb of common folk. In the markets hawkers hawk, salesmen sell, pickpockets pick and whores whore, in amongst it all the Legion keep a wether eye out and make arrests, give fines and what not. The city is rarely quiet as shifts change and people of different classes intermingle. In the small hours of the morning there are often people who are between their first and second sleep up and about, there are revellers going home or people such as bakers and butchers just heading off to work. The streets are always busy with wagons and carts bringing food, beer, wine and all the other produce that a great city like Sundren needs to consume on a daily basis.

Three times a week on animal market days (Let's say Tuesdays, Fridays and Sundays IRL) things get really stinky as the various animals are brought into the city for sale. Some leave back to farmland while others are taken to Slaughter Street and the surrounding areas to be killed and processed for leather, candles, meat, grease and so on. The market itself, well.. A better man than me can describe what that's like.

It was market-morning. The ground was covered, nearly ankle-deep, with filth and mire; a thick steam, perpetually rising from the reeking bodies of the cattle, and mingling with the fog, which seemed to rest upon the chimney-tops, hung heavily above. All the pens in the centre of the large area, and as many temporary pens as could be crowded into the vacant space, were filled with sheep; tied up to posts by the gutter side were long lines of beasts and oxen, three or four deep. Countrymen, butchers, drovers, hawkers, boys, thieves, idlers, and vagabonds of every low grade, were mingled together in a mass; the whistling of drovers, the barking of dogs, the bellowing and plunging of oxen, the bleating of sheep, the grunting and squeaking of pigs, the cries of hawkers, the shouts, oaths, and quarrelling on all sides; the ringing of bells and roar of voices, that issued from every public-house; the crowding, pushing, driving, beating, whooping, and yelling; the hideous and discordant din that resounded from every corner of the market; and the unwashed, unshaven, squalid, and dirty figures constantly running to and fro, and bursting in and out of the throng; rendered it a stunning and bewildering scene, which quite confounded the senses.

Out in the Viridale wolves hunt, deer prance, rangers range, druids molest things, rabbits drink themselves stupid and swear that this time they won't put out so easily, that this time it'lll be different, this time they'll show they don't deserve their fast and loose reputation.

In Aquor rich people mingle, laugh, plot and frequent the temple of Sune and take hot baths in the nearby spring, happily ignoring the rules of public decency because money means Privilege.

In these places and elsewhere shifts change, guards change, preachers preach, congregations come and go, people commute, artists paint, beggars beg and refugees take refuge in drink, drugs or the simple hope that tomorrow things will get better.

All this and a hell of a lot more happens all the time across Sundren. We rely on people using their imagination to fill in the everyday lives of things going on around them because in all honesty if the DM team had to dedicate themselves to nothing but the simple and everyday passing of the common persons lives, we'd have no time at all to run interesting things for players.

PCs are a tiny fraction of the population, they're the exception, the touched, the blessed, the unique and the Fated. But they're who everything gets written about, because they're the ones who are interesting to players and DMs. The only times Common folk really get mentioned is when it is directly related to the life and times of the Players.

[caterpillar]

We can tell when your lying. Its a fourth circle cleric spell and third circle paladin spell *nods*

Do the paladins or clerics loose their time with every petty crime? Like theft? Or does the iron glove and few quick punches save the time? And about the spell who gives you -50 on bluff, well what trials were mentioned above? Takes all the fun out of this possibility. Use a judge who has some decent sence motiv, use the lawyers, not spells, because so has the liar seriously no chance and bluff points are spent in vain.

And correct me if it's not -50, can't remember. Again off topic .

[Aniril_Telin]

It is but I only get a piddly DC on it anyway on Faucon, so he has a high Sense motive. As for Paladins and crimes, they are just as susceptible to the laws as anyone else with the added possibility of losing their Paladin powers should they fall out of grace in the eyes of their god in the process.

[Chiangtao]

In a larger view, I seriously doubt paladins would waste time on petty crimes with spells. It gets weird because we have a small community not a real world, so everyone just wants to get involved. Spell components, spells per day, and casting time could limit this.

On the flip side, I'd rather see folks man up for serious crimes. If you committee murder and are captured, good or evil, lawful, whatever, you should get meaningful rp punishment. It is a game, but it greatly detracts when consequences don't fit the bill. Losing is part of games; sometimes you lose. Death is meaningful; consequences for murder should matter.

This is not just for sundren law either. If you destroy a watchful brother and a black hand lackey captures you, you'd be facing the death penalty too. It is just a little hard to beat a paladin ...

[Doubtful]

Manning up and facing severe penalties for severe crimes is good. But there would need to be a lot more clarification on what exactly constitutes what crime.

Murder would need to be restricted to the permanent death of a PC only (this would have to be overseen by a DM and the dead PC tagged permadead/unresurrectable forever more). The case of a PC killed and respawned/ ressurected would have to be assault and battery. For murder being found guilty at trial or loosing your trial by combat would result in perm.

That way we avoid really stupid situations like people being witnesses at their own murder trial and that kind of .

Otherwise, after a quick read of the wiki on laws, I'd say that things should remain much as they are but with DMs using modern punishments a lot less, and using the more historical and RP based punishments instead.

Of course, punishments for crimes should follow a trial. A PC handing over a criminal is not a trial, nor is an automated script.


Oh, as a last thought. This year, as in the last 4 months or since Jan 1st 2012, how many Jail breakouts do you think there have been? Just want to make sure that we're not blowing a small and rare thing up out of all proportion. DMs, let me know via PM how many you've run and then we can see how well the perceived/actual figures line up.

[Thief Of Navarre]

As Chiangtao said it gets a bit weird because its a small community and not a massive world. Perhaps given the scale of things its all paladin's have to spend their uses per day on *shrugs*