How is Sundren's DM coverage?

[undeadsteak]

*Shrug.* Sure, some people get more DM attention then others, but if your an active player and on for a long time, usually you'll get your good share of attention where you're the center of things sometime.

[GodBeastX]

I don't. Everyone who feels they have to grind is kidding themselves. I know a person, right now, who's level 8 and hasn't killed a single creature. They started RP'ing at level 3, tossed out their personality, gave things for us to work with, and just kept getting event exp (and now the 30 exp/10 minutes). So if someone feels they have to grind to keep up, they are just doing it to match existing players, not doing it to gain DM respect.

I try to include lowbies when I run stuff. It's just muh nature. If I'm not running stuff, I'm usually on some NPC tossing their personality into the mix. If lowbies are interacting with the NPC, they get exp. Pretty simple really.

High levels are generally people who are on alot anyway, so of course they are going to see events. People who login for an hour a week, well, they deserve attention too, but they're going to be more miss than hit when getting it.

[Ash]

...Certain people receive enormous amounts of attention while others actively seek it and rarely find it.

GBX mentioned that DMs look for people who RP well so they can join in... however this breeds a vicious cycle where people see certain people getting all the attention... therefore they believe they must grind away to get to that point as well. DMs on the other hand do not want to RP with grinders...

...Certain people who receive alot of DM attention begin to attract those looking for RP. This is because people know that said person is often frequented by a DM and therefore their character attempts to rub off that character to get some good RP. This means that certain people become the focal point for the server...

The DMs are great, don't get me wrong. Events are fun and the factions being built are well thought out. However, I believe more focus needs to shift back to those new to the server or lower levels to get them more active. Right now, it's a select few who receive tons of attention, while the rest of the server is roaming around trying to find decent RP and only running into grinders attempting to get where the others are...

I play on and off (more off than on now because of frustration) - I'm GMT but used to play beyond midnight quite happily. And I share the opinions quoted.... mostly.

I don't think it's quite as bad as is suggested here and I'm certain that with more play-time any player is likely to find their involvement in DM events increase. If they cut down the grinding.

I have a character essentially stuck at level 6. The real issue XP-wise is not a failure of the DMs, but the fact:

1) I just don't play very often.
2) I find it really difficult to get into a party "doing" some dungeons.
3) If I do get in a party typically it grows too large or is too unbalanced level-wise to make XP gain any better than soloing.
4) I'm the one burning healing equipment to stay alive and burning healing gear and magic to keep others alive.

And of course, this is assuming you're only interested in DM events for the XP, which let's be honest, whilst nice should be secondary to the rp itself.

One thing I have realised - the main reason I want to level is so I can tag along with other players to parts of the world where you need those levels. At level 6 I'm finding myself stuck in the same few areas and not surprisingly, I'm getting bored and crave DM attention all-the-more.

Sorry for the tangents - I just think this is an issue that ties into a lot of things other than a perceived lack of DM coverage. The issues I list are faults with me and many players, not with the DMs.

[Fajitaduke]

I play on and off (more off than on now because of frustration) - I'm GMT but used to play beyond midnight quite happily. And I share the opinions quoted.... mostly.

I don't think it's quite as bad as is suggested here and I'm certain that with more play-time any player is likely to find their involvement in DM events increase. If they cut down the grinding.

I have a character essentially stuck at level 6. The real issue XP-wise is not a failure of the DMs, but the fact:

1) I just don't play very often.
2) I find it really difficult to get into a party "doing" some dungeons.
3) If I do get in a party typically it grows too large or is too unbalanced level-wise to make XP gain any better than soloing.
4) I'm the one burning healing equipment to stay alive and burning healing gear and magic to keep others alive.

And of course, this is assuming you're only interested in DM events for the XP, which let's be honest, whilst nice should be secondary to the rp itself.

One thing I have realised - the main reason I want to level is so I can tag along with other players to parts of the world where you need those levels. At level 6 I'm finding myself stuck in the same few areas and not surprisingly, I'm getting bored and crave DM attention all-the-more.

Sorry for the tangents - I just think this is an issue that ties into a lot of things other than a perceived lack of DM coverage. The issues I list are faults with me and many players, not with the DMs.

I agree with most of these points and am in a similar position. However, I don't think there are any "faults" inherent in anyone, DMs or players, based on that. It may simply be a matter of personality. Sundren has some very talented programmers, but it might just not be the right fit for me. I'll see how things go the next few times I log on, but if it isn't there for me, that's no slight against Sundren.

[Rhifox]

With RP exp now, it really shouldn't be hard to level anymore. The main problem with leveling is actually getting online and participating... and now that participation can be either grinding the PvE way or simply RPing.

I haven't done any grinding since a single xp run in lizards to get to 14. I'm now 4k away from 17 and haven't fought a single mob that's given me exp since 14.


As far as needing levels to go to certain areas go.... eh. Not really. The only people who go to those areas where you need those levels are other grinders in most cases or just lite RPing. Most RPing tends to stay in the social, non-combat areas. The only problem is when the DMs spawn mobs that are too high for some players (or too low for the high level players) in DM events.


It's mostly all about being online, and using that online time effectively.

[Machiavelli]

With RP exp now, it really shouldn't be hard to level anymore. I haven't done any grinding since a single xp run in lizards to get to 14. I'm now 4k away from 17 and haven't fought a single mob that's given me exp since 14.

This can only be true for a very limited number of people... RP XP awards are fairly common, but in most people's case they are not given out frequently or consistently. Your perspective there, Rhifox, is one of somebody who is a) online alot, and b) receives a high level of DM attention. I know for a fact that your character cannot have been above level 14 three weeks ago; that's an xp increase of 46000... most people will only ever see a tiny fraction of that from DMs in their entire time on the server irrespective of how good an RPer they are (eg; Malaclypse received a total of approximately 40thousandish RP XP over his lifespan of being played consistently for over 2-3 months, and that's a character with high exposure and a fair level of DM involvement).

As far as needing levels to go to certain areas go.... eh. Not really. The only people who go to those areas where you need those levels are other grinders in most cases or just lite RPing. Most RPing tends to stay in the social, non-combat areas. The only problem is when the DMs spawn mobs that are too high for some players (or too low for the high level players) in DM events.

Characterising all people who go to 'adventuring' areas as 'grinders' is highly elitist/snobbish, and (as I've tried to say in other threads) totally devalues some of the funnest RP that goes on in Sundren (ie; that associated with adventuring).

There's some value in what you say Rhifox, but I'd argue that the perspective presented just isn't valid for 99% of players, and that your categorisation of people not involved in plot or some sort of 'dramatic' RP as lite RPers is predicated on a particular viewpoint about what RP should be (the DMs don't dictate this to people, and players shouldn't either). There's sense in what you say, but mostly bound up with a certain perspective.

[Rhifox]

This can only be true for a very limited number of people... RP XP award are fairly common, but in most people's case they are not given out frequently or consistently. Your perspective there Rhifox is one of somebody who is a) online alot, and b) receives a high level of DM attention. I know for a fact that your character cannot have been above level 14 three weeks ago; that's an xp increase of 46000... most people will only ever see a tiny fraction of that from DMs irrespective of how good an RPer they are (it should also be noted that this amount of xp corresponds to over 10 days of online time giving the default RP xp)

The 30 exp per 10 minutes is a very powerful thing. It's not about DM experience, it's about activity. The majority of levels 15 and 17 for me have been from RP experience from the tick, with 80-90% of the experience for them being the tick and only 10-20% being from DM rewards. Now, 16 was a freebie for me, this is true, due to selling my character's soul and is, as such, borrowed (if I ever take up the multitude of offers from other people to try and break the contract, I'd lose the level). But still, the other 2 levels were mostly RP experience and show just how powerful it can be.

You think I was talking about DM exp. That's incorrect. I was talking about the 30 exp per 10 minutes tick, which can REALLY add up. Then you add in a bit of DM exp to top it off. It's 180 exp per hour. As someone who regularly spends 14-16 hours online per day, I'm hitting 3k exp from the tick every day. Now, I know other people may not be able to be online nearly as often, but again, the point is, it adds up, and you do not need to grind.

And yes, I was higher than 14 less than 3 weeks ago. I started 16 somewhere between Wednesday and Friday. I'm 4k away from 17 today, Monday. Only 3k or so of the level has been from DM experience.

Characterising all people who go to 'adventuring' areas as 'grinders' is highly elitist/snobbish, and (as I've tried to say in other threads) totally devalues some of the funnest RP that goes on in Sundren (ie; that associated with adventuring).

I didn't say all, but the vast majority of parties I have ever been in has seen this as the case. It's people going grinding for the sake of grinding with lite RP on the side. You know, the parties where you're mostly killing things, you're walking through the place, and every now and then the group will stop and talk or one person will say something. I count that as lite RP.

And I do count it as grinding because, why, pray-tell, would people keep going to the Necropolis or whatever after they've already gone through it once except for grinding purposes? There's very rarely an RP reason to continually pound out a dungeon in a circular fashion.

There's some value in what you say Rhifox, but I'd argue that the perspective presented just isn't valid for 99% of players, and that your categorisation of people not involved in plot or some sort of 'dramatic' RP as lite RPers is predicated on a particular viewpoint about what RP should be (the DMs don't dictate this to people, and players shouldn't either). There's sense in what you say, but mostly bound up with a certain perspective.

I didn't say they had to be involved in a plot or dramatic RP. I said RP in general. Again, you think I'm talking purely about DM exp. I was talking about RP exp, the tick you get, something you get from simply sitting around the campfire talking about the rain. Nothing plotwise or dramatic about that, but it's still exp, and it still adds up. And it also means you are there when the DMs arrive, which means you get involved in DM events and get exp for said events.

And by lite RP, I meant the dungeon groups which say little and kill more, who are going through a dungeon over and over again purely for the exp, of which I am also guilty of and got over with as soon as possible. The vast majority of the groups that go to dungeons are for this purpose, from what I have seen. IC reasons to go to dungeons are particularly rare, in my experience.

[Machiavelli]

The 30 exp per 10 minutes is a very powerful thing. It's not about DM experience, it's about activity. The majority of levels 15 and 17 for me have been from RP experience from the tick, with 80-90% of the experience for them being the tick and only 10-20% being from DM rewards. You think I was talking about DM exp. That's incorrect. I was talking about the 30 exp per 10 minutes tick, which can REALLY add up. Then you add in a bit of DM exp to top it off.

And yes, I was higher than 14 less than 3 weeks ago. I started 16 somewhere between Wednesday and Friday. I'm 4k away from 17 today, Monday. Only 3k or so of the level has been from DM experience.

That amount of RP XP you speak of (ie; 80% of 48,0000, being ~38,0000) requires 8.8 days of solid online 'RP' time, which is something most people will simply never achieve in all their time playing Sundren.

I didn't say all, but the vast majority of parties I have ever been in has seen this as the case. It's people going grinding for the sake of grinding with lite RP on the side. You know, the parties where you're mostly killing things, you're walking through the place, and every now and then the group will stop and talk or one person will say something. I count that as lite RP.

You've picked the wrong parties... that's all which needs to be said(Argue all you want, most people will support that assertion). It may not be the majority of parties that engage in RP while adventuring, but I've been involved in some that was not only excellent, but also influential on character development!.[/quote]

And I do count it as grinding because, why, pray-tell, would people keep going to the Necropolis or whatever after they've already gone through it once except for grinding purposes? There's very rarely an RP reason to continually pound out a dungeon in a circular fashion.

Actually, such reasons can be contrived and contribute to RP. For instance; Malaclypse was on an ongoing quest to try and make decent observations of the altar on the top floor of the Necropolis (which were invariably interrupted) as part of his broader agenda of hunting down Necromancers, previously to that he'd been on a quest to try and get the Orcs of Viridale to build him a mage tower (which led to much amusing RP on quests into the forest, and also contributed to many RP dicussions which took place outside of this context... He was known, in the context of adventuring (grinding in your terms) as 'Mooclips the Merciful'... and ongoing RP over the difficulties of being overlord to the Grimaxe was ongoing for most of the time I had him as a a character.

Dungeon running can give rise to all sorts of fun RP... yes it can just be grinding if you don't pick you groups carefully (which I doubt you did given how fast Josephine advanced), but it can also be alot of fun and lead to RP which contributes to forming, or simply making evident, a given character's personality and reputation.

And by lite RP, I meant the dungeon groups which say little and kill more, who are going through a dungeon over and over again purely for the exp, of which I am also guilty of and got over with as soon as possible.

Most people will never be able to 'get over' dungeon running... the amount of DM xp handed out is not consistently high enough, RP xp only gives out anything worthwhile if you spend alot of time online (eg; advancement from level 3 to level 4 using the default RP XP requires 16 solid hours of online RP time... many people have job and families, RP XP provides a nifty incentive to those who might not otherwise RP, but as a source of gainign levels it's pretty muc irrelevant).

[Rhifox]

My point is simply: If you don't want to grind to get to higher levels, then don't. If you want to sit around and RP but still gain exp, then do it. Going to dungeons isn't necessary to get to higher levels anymore due to the RP exp tick (DM exp is just the icing on the cake). Grinding dungeons in full parties can be faster for those first 12 levels or so than RPing if you can get consistent groups, but isn't necessary to advance anymore.

[Fajitaduke]

Wow, you and I have such totally different perspectives it's amazing.

[Machiavelli]

My point is simply: If you don't want to grind to get to higher levels, then don't. If you want to sit around and RP but still gain exp, then do it. Going to dungeons isn't necessary to get to higher levels anymore due to the RP exp tick (DM exp is just the icing on the cake). Grinding dungeons in full parties can be faster for those first 12 levels or so than RPing if you can get consistent groups, but isn't necessary to advance anymore.

This is only true if people are able to spend a signifcant portion of their time online. Consider that going from 3rd to 4th level requires 16 hours of online time, 4th to 5th 22 hours... etc. Advancement via RP xp is only relevant in either a) a Very long term context, or b) For those who spend a very large amount of time online. Unless people are willing or able to be online for a significant portion of their lives, XP from 'grinding' monsters is the only way of advancing their characters. I'll gladly admit that there are people who've got to high levels in this fashion that are not RPers, but to be fair that is actually pretty rare (or was three weeks ago anyways).

[dashminus]

Eastern Standard Time, Ohio. I play at midnight till 2 a.m. usually. So far in my stay here with Sundren, I have stumbled across 1 DM event, and was part of 1 other DM event. So 2 events since starting here.

I realize my playtime is limited and at a relatively odd time compared to many players, so I don't really worry much.

[Infernal_Havok]

Rhifox, as of now you gained your last two levels by RP XP, but what about levels 1-12? I have seen Josephine grind out those levels late at night (GMT-5) when she is alone blasting AoE's in dungeons to get through those lower level slumps before the RP xp system was in place. I really hope you don't start pointing your finger or casting stones at lower level players (assumed grinders) that are trying to make their place the same way you started. DM xp is rare and that is how it is suppose to be, rarely do DM's find most people's performances exceptional to grant a consistent amount of XP through events.

As one of the "Top 5 online players", it would be appreciated to have some sensitivity to people that have really tight time restrictions and also like a bit of action and rp for an overall enjoyable experience. Your character's class dictates the way she is played, more or less a non-combative magic user, what about the classes that were designed for combat? Why should they be completely abstaining from dungeons or non-repetition of areas? Just to let you know, grinding XP works for both non-combat and combat oriented characters. The new Rp xp system is a good addition but it does have certain limitations as well as ways it can be abused.

[ThePaganKing]

I remember having Josephine in my parties many times going through areas to gain xp. We were all having a good time and RPing the experience, so in my opinion, you can run through dungeons and still have fun and RP the event. Most RP, IMO, should be between players anyway, without DM involvement.

One of the things that really gets me going is a great fight! Going into a dungeon that you know you probably shouldn't be in, with a group of guys that you like RPing with, and fighting it out to an inch of your life and surviving! Those are great times. Also, you can create all sorts of situations while RPing through a dungeon..........just use your imagination.

As to the 30 xp per 10 minutes RP bonus, I think it is a great idea, but I get online maybe 12 hours per week if I am lucky and usually only get on maybe three to four times a week. I have a familiy and job and cannot dedicate hours per day to sit around, talk, fall asleep, or whatever to gain that XP bonus.

We must remember that everyone has their own schedule and needs and wants and we should not point fingers, because we don't really know their situation.

[Rhifox]

Rhifox, as of now you gained your last two levels by RP XP, but what about levels 1-12? I have seen Josephine grind out those levels late at night (GMT-5) when she is alone blasting AoE's in dungeons to get through those lower level slumps before the RP xp system was in place. I really hope you don't start pointing your finger or casting stones at lower level players (assumed grinders) that are trying to make their place the same way you started. DM xp is rare and that is how it is suppose to be, rarely do DM's find most people's performances exceptional to grant a consistent amount of XP through events.

I am not pointing fingers. I have stated and admit that I grinded very quickly through those levels, I tried to get them over with as fast as possible because I hate grinding.

My entire purpose for posting was in people saying 'I want to RP, but I feel I am compelled to grind to gain levels, and will possibly quit the server soon because I can't get groups for grinding and thus can't gain levels'. What I am trying to say is, that if you really don't want to grind, then don't. It'll be slower paced especially if you aren't online often, but if you really don't like it, then don't. If you do, then you're probably more likely to find groups that are able to get good experience.

Why should they be completely abstaining from dungeons or non-repetition of areas? Just to let you know, grinding XP works for both non-combat and combat oriented characters. The new Rp xp system is a good addition but it does have certain limitations as well as ways it can be abused.

I never said they shouldn't be. If that's the kind of class someone plays, then they're more than likely to want to go out to dungeons often, have fun doing it, and are more likely to find a group for it. They weren't the people I was referring to in my post. I was referring to the people, again, who have stated they don't like grinding but feel they have to in order to participate on the server.