Apprehending PCs: How should it be handled?

[Cornuto]

Players capturing other players is often difficult to resolve in a way that is enjoyable for all involved.

As a player, how do you feel the capture of one PC by a rival faction should be handled?

[Chiangtao]

I like logical or cm repercussions but the implications on evil PC's are problematic. It greatly reduces the number of safe or sociable areas they can be in which turns them into loners.

My suggestion is to allow for escalating repercussions for both good and evil warranted captures. Outline a system describing three strikes so to speak. But things like notoriety and bounties should play a factor. For what it's worth - why don't the BH have their own list of bounties like the Legion does??

Here's an example of what I mean:



Policy on PC Faction Captures

1) Every faction will keep a bounty list. Bounties should indicate a value for capture, including gold and reputation gains. PCs captured who have bounties on their head may have their punishments escalated, since the terms were public and spelled out to warn the captured PC. Permadeath is possible for those wanted "Dead or Alive."

2) PCs can be captured for "misdemeanors" and "felonies." These terms are used loosely, because a "misdemeanor" to a druid may have no bearing on written law. The idea is to separate low and high end crimes against any faction. Each faction should have some sample misdemeanors and felonies, but it is up to DM discretion as to which applies in any circumstance, at the time of capture.

3) 50% of a fine collected will go to the capturing PC.
Confiscated items may also be given to the capturing PC unless they are plot-related or deemed unlawful.

4) Misdemeanors:
PCs should not be killed for misdemeanor crimes. Subdual should be used, unless the PC resists and becomes violent in return. PCs captured for misdemeanor crimes are subject to the following rules:
a) 1st capture: Pay a fine, 100 - 1,000 GP, pending DM discretion
b) 2nd capture: Pay a fine, 500 - 2,500 GP, pending DM discretion. May also result in jail time not to exceed 2 hours real time.
c) 3rd capture and beyond: Pay a fine of at least 1,000 GP. May result in jail time not to exceed one day real time.

5) Felonies:
PCs may be killed for committing felonies, pending on the severity. PCs captured for felonies are subject to the following rules:
a) 1st capture: Pay a fine, 1,000 - 5,000 GP, pending DM discretion. Will result in jail time not to exceed one day real time.
b) 2nd capture: Confiscation of magic item not to exceed 10,000 GP in value. Will result in jail time not to exceed five days real time.
c) 3rd capture: Confiscation of highest value magic item. Will result in jail time that could be permanent. Could result in permadeath.

6) At any time, a DM may escalate a captured PC in the punishment scale based on IC reasons and discretion. A person who commits mass murder does not get off for 5,000 gold just because it is their first "arrest."

[Cornuto]

For what it's worth - why don't the BH have their own list of bounties like the Legion does??

Don't know. I'd think every faction would have its own (s)hit-list -- except maybe the druids. They're too busy listening to Phish and dropping acid in the woods.

[Snowmane]

PC's should be able to apprehend other PC's in the course of RP'ing, otherwise factions are a farce. The results should be agreed upon by the players, and whoever gets "screwed" just needs to roll with it and realize that they can be the "screwer" instead of the "screwee" sometime in the future. This requires maturity on the part of the players.

A DM should become involved if one is available and the players think it's necessary (such as an apprehension that could result in a permanent effect to the victim, like execution). If no DM is available, then the apprehender can only impose the apprehension as far as the defender will allow.

For example, Maneae was apprehended by Kirk Carshby. He was going to let her off with a warning, but he used the wrong words and pissed her off. So she fought him and he had to put her down at which point he beat the crap out of her, stole her gold and some items I believe. (I gave it over willingly).

((DM EDIT: Let's avoid critiques of past instances. I'd like to keep the discussion focused on everyone's future ideal expectations. Very much appreciate the above input, however.))

[Yevelian]

I have always tried to role play these situations considering both ends of it, which I have been on. Playing a thug, rogue, or otherwise run of the mill bad guy is one thing. Once a character moves on to be labeled an "enemy of the state" however, I think it moves the discussion to a different category. Not being specific, but when my enemy of the state toon was taken down by a rather uppity paladin, I didn't complain. I sat in the fugue as others role played a way for my enemy of the state to be rescued. From that point on, he feigned being dead. No one outside of his cadre of bad guys "knew" he was alive, and he certainly avoided attention and being caught again. Some characters are better avoiding the lime light than others. What happens should absolutely be based on the offenses they've committed, and decided on by DMs.


If enemies of the state is more or less a misdemeanor, I think enemy of the state loses it's true meaning. It's a hard list to be on. Gods knows I didn't like being on it, and I took a vast array of steps to ensure I never ended up back on it. That said, to this day I would sit back and accept a role play consequence of being discovered alive and well. I would feel like it was anticlimatic, if I was an enemy of the state that could get away from justice by saying "it wasn't me".

[roguethree]

Capturing PCs should go away. More than enough players handle it poorly, and there's no lasting impact. PCs are broken out within 24 hours under hilarious circumstances, et cetera, et cetera.

The player bounty system is lol.

"Hey, I just killed and brought you this guy on the list."

"Great, here's your xp/gp."

And now the guy on the list respawns and goes about his business, the warrant for his kill/capture lifted, as though the crime were never committed.

"Aren't you the guy that burned down the orphanage?"
"Yeah, but some bounty hunter killed me, so that doesn't matter anymore."

There are no real negative consequences to negative actions, and people generally don't like to play out being subdued/incarcerated/what have you, so let's just nix it.

[Kitsunestume]

I'm of the opinion the players should be capable of capturing other platers, but the repercussions should be based on a number of factors like precident, and severity of the crime, and the ethical and moral viewpoint of the detainer. If the severity of the crime warrents significant input from an NPC(and therefor a DM), then the rank and opinion of the detaining charachter should also be an influence. The opinion of a higher-ranking player in the faction should have more weight than that of an lower-ranking player or NPC.
Also, no-one has yet informed me that Sundren is no-longer under Martial Law, so the Hands and the Legion can still technically can arrest anyone on a whim, assuming they can reason it to their superiors once they report in.

Also, I'm inclined to agree eith R3 on the lack of severity. The only punative action (short of perming) that has proven to be something to be avoided was when Kurai got locked in jail for 42 days (His actual sentence was 2 days and a 20k fine, increased by 1 day for every 500gp he didn't pay). Perhaps more long sentences would be a medium between a slap on the wrist and a permanent lock on the char.
[Edit: To compare it to Chiangtao's example, this was his second time being jailed by Emiliana Blackwell, and the charges were standing around near an undead, not summoning or attacking anyone]

Originally Posted by Chiangtao
For what it's worth - why don't the BH have their own list of bounties like the Legion does??

I know that the Black Tax has a list of bounties on players, and from what i've determind, we sorta have three unofficial lists: people who we watch in case we need to kill them, people who we kill if an opening presents itself, and people we go to great lengths to kill and keep dead. The last one is currently empty. I've only encountered one time when we actually captured someone, but that was by 'Kill them and ressurect them in a cell for questioning", then we killed one of them again for good.

[Redjack]

Capturing other players? Certainly, it can make a evening entertaining and give a shadow lurking bad guy a chance to actually interact/converse with characters he would not otherwise be able too.
I don't support long term imprisonment on a regular basis. Sure there are circumstances where it makes sense, as long as a DM is involved guiding the outcome. If one of my characters grabs someone for "questioning" I wouldn't expect anyone to accommodate RP I initiated for days on end at their inconvenience. (other then Peridan as he should suffer for having such annoying characters)
I personally am ok with my characters being locked up. But saying that all of my characters would be in jail or dead and I don't like to create a new character weekly.
People that play along with getting dragged off to some dark hole and having their finger nails pulled out then dumped in an alley win my respect for making good/evil work in our imaginary world.
Long term imprisonment and the threat of perm death does ratchet up the intensity of game play.

[Peridan]

If one of my characters grabs someone for "questioning" I wouldn't expect anyone to accommodate RP I initiated for days on end at their inconvenience. (other then Peridan as he should suffer for having such annoying characters)

That was the longest two RL weeks ever.

[InflatableFriend]

I'm liking Chaingtao's suggestion.

The biggest problem Sundren has is that it's pretty much like playing a game with god-mode enabled.

There is currently no inherent risk in doing anything in Sundren. XP and gold are easy to gain, if things go wrong while you're collecting them then it's just a case of sitting around for a while while you recover from your resurrection or respawn.

No matter what your crime or how much you brag about it the Legion will be shown up as a bunch of incompetent fools and let you go. No matter how many times you're captured by the Veritas you'll always wake up intact after being thrown out as dead. No matter what tyranny and fear the Black Hand lay down on you you'll always be able to stroll away without a care in the world.

It's risk free, and after a while fun free. What's the point in playing a Legionnaire when the jails are equipped with revolving doors? Why should the Triad even bother perusing the BigBadEvilPC when no matter how much you smite it it'll be back tomorrow going over the same actions with the same inevitable lack of consequences? It's like some piss poor deathmatch where no matter how many kills or respawns you have you're all going to end up loosing.

Without risk there's also precious little in the way of reward. XP, Gold? Nothing. Faction Rep? Meaningless, you can buy it with gold and gold is worthless. The reward for conflict? The same conflict, played over and over and over and over again until one player gets bored and quits.

I bet it's just as annoying for the DM team who have to make up ever more stupid escape situations for PCs who by rights should be dead or locked away forever.

I'd suggest something like Chaingtao's varying levels of wantedness combined with a few shakeups of the current system.


1. Clearly define which groups have the powers of arrest in what areas

• Exigo/Blackwood in Avanthyr and the Trade Post
• Thayans in Aquor
• The Legion in Mirakus, Viridale Military Post, Mossdale Outpost, Sundren City and the length of the Pioneers way.
• Corps in Sestra
• Temples would have powers of arrest in their temple and the town or city in which they're located.
• Schild, Necropolis, Viridale and Mossdale Proper to be lawless or subject to whatever occupying power is there.
• The 4th Legion have powers under martial law, so it would probably be best to keep membership of this Legion limited to high rep ranks only (Perhaps at rank 4+ you get transferred into the 4th) giving the PC powers to arrest in every location, provided they're not in conflict with the local law enforcement group. Though to be honest I'd revoke the martial law powers in order to give more power to non legion groups.
• The Hands shouldn't really be bothered with petty crime or arresting people. It's like having
  the CIA/FBI sending people out to deal with teenage shoplifters.

The idea behind this is to give smaller groups some power, rather than having to rely on the Legion for all your law enforcement needs. Groups could be able to transfer prisoners between locations (having a lawless area appended to each towns entrance would be a major help here, allowing people to ambush and waylay prisoner transfers), or hold hostages themselves. For instance, someone wanted by the Legion may be arrested by the Thayans in Aquor and held while the Legion are sent for to transfer the prisoner to the city prison. Alternatively someone wanted by the Legion who is good friends with the Thayans may be able to walk free in Aquor as the Thayans choose not to recognise that persons guilt. The Legion could then choose to mount a raid to arrest the person but risk a major diplomatic incident and loss of life in the process.

Groups could work together, or against each other for bounties on PCs heads, for example the Temple of Umberlee could employ mercenary groups Blackwood, Eboncoin or anyone else to snatch a wanted character and drag them back to Avanthyr, earning themselves rep with both factions. This could be risky as the group would be risking negative rep with whatever group they're infringing on (and possible arrest or imprisonment if they're over the top with their methods)

Outlaw factions can do what they want, either working for other groups or following their own agenda.

This should encourage people to try and earn rep with factions other than the one they're in. After all, you never know when you'll need allies.

2. Make rep mean something.
As said, rep is currently worthless. Remove the cash4rep bins and set everyone’s rep back to a base 1000 with their faction and allow a two-week period for those who earned a higher rank through RP to petition for the restoration of their old rank. Tweak the rep/rank balance so it's workable without cash.

Give responsibilities within a faction based on the characters current rank – A High ranking Legionnaire should be able to command a lot of respect from allied factions, whereas a junior might find themselves ignored or stonewalled. Transfer of prisoners should be something that's limited to medium-high ranking members of a faction.

Encourage people to earn rep with factions other than their employers. My enemies enemy and all that. This is particuarly important for those who want to go against the current government.

The idea is to provide a much more dynamic environment for factions than the current Legion focused arrangement. Those who commit terrible actions indiscriminantly are likely to end up perminantly out of play. Those who are intelligent and cultivate alliances and friendships are more likely to survive or escape when things go wrong.

[Chiangtao]

The biggest problem Sundren has is that it's pretty much like playing a game with god-mode enabled.

True dat. Sundren does its best to appease everyone. The number of possible players is dwindling over the years as the game ages, and retention is more and more important. Even though Sundren rules state over and over that negative consequences can occur (permadeath, for example), they rarely do occur. I don't disagree with this approach - there have been times we've lost players over permajailing and the like. But I'd almost like to see a EULA for all players where they must agree to a level of understanding of the server environment, so negative consequences don't shock the system.

1. Clearly define which groups have the powers of arrest in what areas

I dig this idea in some ways, but not in others. A bad guy could walk into a Legion outpost and defeat everyone to capture a soldier PC. However, I like the flavor of it - create a faction-based battleground environment. Reduce the number of factions overall (population is dwindling) and pit folks against one another more often.

2. Make rep mean something.

I don't think rep is meaningless. But I like one core part of what you're saying. With the rep system, it takes current players a long time to "rank up," while hibernating players can stay at high ranks and be influential.

My first reaction would be, have rep deteriorate over time. This would make players unhappy and cause items to suddenly be unwearable.

Alternatively, I think a great idea would be to add a rep trickle to the xp trickle that already exists. This would reward active players for just logging in. And that makes sense in a realistic way - presence does mean something.

Once rep gain flows in, I agree that it would help to work it into capture-based rules. Things like bail, fees, and wanted signs could all be influenced by infamy.

[InflatableFriend]

I don't think rep is meaningless. But I like one core part of what you're saying. With the rep system, it takes current players a long time to "rank up," while hibernating players can stay at high ranks and be influential.

If people can pay gold for rep, then it is meaningless. I'll use myself as an example here. I've got a mage in the hands of Mundus who has had roughly one interaction of any meaningfulness with another member of the Legion, he had to do nothing but breath to join and has done nothing at all for his faction except give worthless grindable coin. He's now an Archmage, the highest rank a player can acheive in the faction.

I know I'm not the only one who's gotten themselves to the top of the rankings while doing nothing for their faction.

I like to think I'm normally a fairly responsible player and I don't play the mage much as I'm actually quite embarassed about having cheapened the games setting by doing it. Certainly my Legionnaire who's only a junior officer has gotten to his rank by hard graft and worthy roleplay, as it should be.

Alternatively, I think a great idea would be to add a rep trickle to the xp trickle that already exists. This would reward active players for just logging in. And that makes sense in a realistic way - presence does mean something.

Once rep gain flows in, I agree that it would help to work it into capture-based rules. Things like bail, fees, and wanted signs could all be influenced by infamy.

A rep trickle makes a lot more sense than paying for it, other ways might be rewarding the players who make in character reports through the different forums or as a result of RPoTM votes, even if they don't win the big prize.

[Cornuto]

Alternatively, I think a great idea would be to add a rep trickle to the xp trickle that already exists. This would reward active players for just logging in. And that makes sense in a realistic way - presence does mean something.

This sounds somewhat interesting. Perhaps it if only worked while the person was in their faction Headquarters. (For instance, Thayans who spend time in the enclave would slowly gain rep.)

[Valor]

This sounds somewhat interesting. Perhaps it if only worked while the person was in their faction Headquarters. (For instance, Thayans who spend time in the enclave would slowly gain rep.)

I don't exactly agree with that. Thayan might be working at enclave, but many others need to travel to fulfil their duties. If you would like the rep gain to be bonded with location there should be much bigger list of locations. Also the locations could offer different reputation, depending on importance for that faction. Or even number of other PCs of same faction in that location could be taken in account. Possibilities are many indeed.

[Saulus]

GBX and I discussed rep trickle internally awhile ago and decided for various reasons it wasn't a good idea. We are all for more rep gain methods, but the trickle is far too easily exploited and we have no guarantee they are even doing something to further their faction while gaining bonus rep.