Do you feel your character can make a difference?

[Phantom Lamb]

You do realize nobody documented crap back then, right? I like to consider that time period more of a "Dark Years" as silly as it might sound.

Amen...

[Zoberraz]

You make a good point about the frequency of level 15 people, GBX. That makes applying what I mentioned more an art form than anything else.

As I remember it back then, some of our level caps were hit not because of an experience curve, but simply because there were no bad guys to actually fight and level. Once upon a time, I recall Maia was level 8... and that was high level because we only had up Mossclaw Meet to fight bad guys. Until the Necropolis was added in.

Today, most people don't seem to really bother with the necropolis unless it's a DM event stop. While an interesting locale, bandit-fighting around Aquor's mountain trails is much easier. But back then, the necropolis was our only spot where we could advance... very dangerous everywhere, but absolutely deadly on the second level with those vampire blackguards and stuff! The Dark Advent in turn beneficiated - from that point on - from a very deadly reputation.

It's quite possible some of the impression I have also dates from the 'dark ages', as you called them. I did experience the guard-screw-with-me-while-I'm-level-15 in this iteration of Sundren... but then, yeah, getting to level 15 had been much faster. I recall thinking I wanted to hurry to reach the other guys whom were in that level range so my character's abilities could be remotely useful to them in a DM event, instead of having the character be a liability. So, guilty as charged too.

Ah well. The point was sensibilizing people about the issue. You seem plenty sensibilized. Moving on. *squeaky wheel squeak*

* * *

I do stand by the suggestion of adding in a bit more demi-human racial references around. I've no doubt that Sundren is mostly dominated by humans, going from a 70% to a 90% (my impression goes probably toward the latter), but I find it in hindsight that it would be a great addition for players. To give them something, in the world, that supports what they culturally are beyond the roleplay of their own character.

Maia prayed Solonor. Solonor is like, one of the many elven gods of the Seldarine, the elf pantheon. I hardly expect 'Solonor' to show up anywhere in Sundren. But something about just Corellon - the chief god of the Elf Pantheon - would really have been a great touch.

Things like that could very well help giving some locales (like, say, the park close to the Temple of Helm) more significance to the PC as well.

anyhow. You've been really nice hearing out my points GBX... but I think I've said mostly what I had to say, so I'll have my case rest here. Thanks for offering us an ear.

[Usurper]

I remember Corellon himself meeting a certain elf in Sundren..

[gbbishop]

I have already made a thread for stuff like character development,faction events,and small event requests in general.

Those that have posted their ideas or suggestions have been worked with or responded to in some kind of way concerning their requests..

I have seen alot of views for the thread,but very few posts in regards to the actual topic of the thread.As a DM, I have reached out to you as players to get something rolling for your characters by creating the thread and giving you a little freedom for suggestions and ideas that we can act out in-game.However,it seems to me that only a few people have made use of the thread and maybe everyone else is clueless to what they want?

Have not heard anything from my post.... granted it was non specific. But I kinda see that open forum as a raise your hand and be called on. I hardly want to divulge my goals and plots publicly. I was speaking for others of the grove so maybe they saw some action as result of the post, i dunno.

As for bumping a post I feel like that could be annoying to constantly see the same request popping up....

What is an acceptable period of time for the Staff between bumps?

[Usurper]

Have not heard anything from my post.... granted it was non specific. But I kinda see that open forum as a raise your hand and be called on. I hardly want to divulge my goals and plots publicly. I was speaking for others of the grove so maybe they saw some action as result of the post, i dunno.

As for bumping a post I feel like that could be annoying to constantly see the same request popping up....

What is an acceptable period of time for the Staff between bumps?

No problem and bumping my post or thread that is,is something I would like to see

[Doubtful]

One or two pantheonic temples might be nice - one building with several alters and nooks for different gods, a place for those who worship the smaller gods to call home..

Though it's always worth remembering that the vast amount of worship doesn't take place in the temples; it takes place at home in front of the house hold alter, or in the form of dedicating aspects of work or pleasure, or at way side shrines or little sacred places...

[Doubtful]

What is an acceptable period of time for the Staff between bumps?

If you've posted something up on the Character Requests forum and you haven't heard anything after a week or so then don't be afraid to politely give it a nudge - Never be worried about approaching the staff for something, we're not killer cyborgs really!

[DM_Equinox]

No... you're a killer tentacled thing from the deep sea.

Seriously though - stuff does get lost at times, it happens. A nudge won't get you slapped. Hard.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I'm really not happy with the phrasing of this poll. I think if you posed this question on any server, you'd get the same results. Players always want to make a difference, and who can blame them? It's extremely hard to support it in a NWN environment to the same level as a PNP environment because adding dynamic content takes work.

If folks have some concrete suggestions for the DM team, I'm really all ears. If we're lacking DM client hours, lacking DM courage to do new things, etc... that sort of feedback is useful. This poll... eh. It's a softball question.

That's what I was trying to say but I didnt word it quite as elegantly. It's hard to have big changes in a persistant world ~ unlike PnP where you can just screw up the campaign page and write it out as you see fit!

[nezzerscape]

Hmm, do I feel a single char can make a difference? Yes but, few and far between (as they seem to be in Sundren). While I am felling bla about my favorite char, I think that the staff does allow one to influence how things transpire in the setting.

My biggest complaint about “making a difference” is factions. I understand and agree with factions (or any group) making a difference but they are all the same. The way I see them is you have a choice of chocolate or vanilla (good or evil). I know that I will get nasty feedback on this but I cannot tell the difference between a … heck none standout enough for me to compare. Where are the issues of “how right is done” ? “No we must bring them to justice! No their evil to the core, kill them all!” Where is the chaotic good team? You know the one where there are NO paladins!

If I could tell the difference between the factions via RP I would join them. The only one that stand out to me is the Red Blades and that is due to Lane pushing them everywhere (Good for you Lane! Really) or their armors standout.

I know I do not pick up in subtleties, but I do barely know what factions the people I play with are a member off.

Now back to my point (I think I had one). If the factions were more distinct I believe the members would feel more a sense of accomplishment and impact on the world. Heck it might even boost their members.

I would like to see a few brawls over things such as my church is better or are you hitting on my girl? Where all members of each group duke it out (no weapons, only minor spells, no deaths). These confrontations may lead to good stories. Joe got his but kick now he has something to prove. Perhaps his morals get tested, does he enlist the aid of the local thieving guild to get back? Not so rightists now Paladin!

[GodBeastX]

Hahah! Nezzerscrape, that post cracked me up.

Not so rightist now, Paladin!

Hahah!

[nezzerscape]

And another thing...

Are the factions currently limited in there numbers? Would it not be cool for ALL the Cartel PRCs get together (with the help of the DM) to raid a town? Perhaps all the Legionnaires come to the rescue? Every time you have a mass about of players in an area you draw more RPCs (like a road side crash). Perhaps they could chose sides then or there? Get killed by a good guy by mistake? Walk into a gunfight, you'll have to pull your piece out.

[ParadoxicalAnonymity]

Preface: Some might consider this a TLDR. That's fine. You need not read it. But there's no need to point out it's a TLDR, following the fact. Just don't read it, then.

While many people have mentioned the polarized options of the poll, it still has provided good discussion, whatever the underlining opinion of each of the participants. There's a lot of merit in such things, and I think there's a massive amount of potential that can be gleaned from the contributions put forth, thus far.

It's never easy to hear critique, but I think such a topic goes a long way on the part of some of the staff members being open to it. It says a lot of those particular individuals.

I think it's difficult to say whether people are capable of changing the world of Sundren or not. Someone already poignantly expressed that this is the problem of any PW, because it's not exactly easy to constantly change factions, settings, and NPCs because of the limitations of changing things through mechanics.

Of course the ultra-good guys want to see the Thayan Enclave uprooted and kicked out of Sundren. And from an In Character perspective, that's a great goal. Go for it. Try to make it happen. Just as long as the individual that plays the character recognizes that it's a very, very unlikely thing to happen. Both for In Character and Out of Character reasons.

It's not meant to take control from the players. It's meant for the cohesion and variety of a server. It'd be like trying to uproot the Church of Helm, or the Triumvirate. If you start allowing the dissolution of major elements of the server, it'd create an enormous burden on the server's staff, and even on a lot of the players that look to PWs as playing certain elements, when that server originally offers them.

Sometimes more temporary elements are acceptable, such as the recent burning of the Sunite temple (only a week after it was built, no less!). I doubt those arsonists expected it to be permanently burnt to the ground, despite it'd be really satisfying if they could.

I wanted to say all of this first, because I want it to be clear that I think there's a limit to how much control you can really put in player hands, otherwise it's going to become a giant pendulum that will swing with the current phase of the factions with the most players that are active, which could have unbalanced and disastrous results for server and mechanics stability.

In the end, while possibly temporary satisfying for one faction, it would prove the unraveling of the varied personae we find on PWs.

This being said, I would like to just mention some observances I've had, so far, concerning this. I can see how some players might feel that they have little ability to effect the world around them, and not necessarily even in an enormous and dynamic way.

DM Events are the bread and butter of how a player is going to have the ability for their character to effect the world beyond just convincing another character of a viewpoint, or beating their brains in. Not that these are light or inconsequential things, because often the Character/Character interactions can be amazingly deep and inspiring.

But, the interaction with events, NPCs, and the living world around them can often give PCs a feeling of being a part of that actual world, and not just being around to socialize with people in taverns. Due to such, many players will always look at DM events as very important elements of their stay, and even the pinnacle of storytelling.

The problem is, sometimes, the ability for a character to act in an event is limited by not their abilities, talents, skills, or characteristics, but by limitations placed by DMs. To give a light analogy, consider it like a sandbox video game, where you can drive anywhere in the city... until you hit that invisible wall at the edge of the city. By no means is the game horrible, was it cheaply made, or anything of the sort. But it can give a very vivid and striking feeling that develops into that loss of immersion.

We've been asked to also give back some suggestions, and I can understand that. As has been said, "The people don't want a whiner, they want a revolutionary." So, that being said, a few things.

First, skill rolls: I've noticed that there seems to be a propensity to judge based on the roll, not the result. What I mean by this, is I've seen the same DM judge success not on DCs, but the result of the actual d20 roll's result. I've seen instances of relatively the same scenario, where someone had a very high base for their roll, and someone that had next to nothing. And when the person with a near 0 in the base rolled high, they succeeded, and when the person with a high base rolled low, he failed. Despite the latter person having a much higher end result.

The reason why this can be discouraging is because it is the equivalent of feeling your investment into the world, as a character, is not a valid investment. It is more based on the random chance in a DM event than the actual result of your character's crafting.

A similar vein to such is the Knowledge skills. I've noticed there's a propensity to allow Lore to substitute for the Knowledge skills. This can result in people abandoning Knowledge skills, and instead just beefing up their Lore skill to extremes, to make up for it. Even if you have to entirely focus on Lore, it's easier to focus on Lore exclusively than to start spreading between all the Knowledge skills. Especially for Bards.

Before someone says, "But these are skills! We're talking about making a difference." I think this directly applies to it. These sorts of elements have your character effect the world around them. "Oh, that guy's the scholar, because he actually knows about History, and Geography, and Plant Life!" When certain elements of characters are stressed, and even endorsed, these characters feel that they're becoming someone in the world around them.

Did they blow up the Watch Barracks and become the Dread Pirate Roberts? No. But now they might be known among Sundren, even some NPCs, for being a History Buff. The go-to historian. If you ever played Oblivion, you might recall that NPCs reacted to the skills and abilities you had most advanced. People noticed if you were muscular, lithe, etc.

When the world reacts to even small things like that, I guarantee the PCs will feel like they are making a difference, instead of being anonymous adventurer #1295.

The last one, and a difficult one on every server, is minimizing plots on rails. Sometimes end results are necessary, naturally. But there are always ways to shade an event to make it seem like every choice the player makes still makes a difference (for better or worse), and still have the DM guide it to the end result they were looking to. To be honest, that's part of the DM's job. They're there because they're storytellers, and sometimes impromptu ones at that.

No DM I've ever met could account for every possible decision that a player might make, but on the same note, they should at least consider the possibility that an element might be inserted into their story they didn't expect. It's at this point that the DM can even ask for the plot to slow down, and they need some time to think about how to proceed. Or even they could say that the event is taking a turn they didn't expect, and they'll need to postpone the resolution.

I can almost (always exceptions) guarantee that most people will be fine with this. Especially if it means that the DM is simply taking into account a character's decision they did not expect.

Because most players have been in one of those events that they're coming up with ingenious ways to accomplish what they want, but the DM's then just coming up with a bunch of ways to stop those ideas from working. It becomes a game of the DM vs. the Players, instead of rewarding the players for ingenuity and clever thinking.

I'm not pointing at any DM, and would even like to say I've had some good experiences with many of the DMs on the server so far.

But it's still an element every server struggles with, and probably every DM even struggles with. In the end, though, if a story is made for the players, try to allow the players more freedom in their actions.

Otherwise, when a story is entirely on rails, it feels more like a story being told to the players instead of a story actually involving the players. More like the players are involuntary pawns to be used to drive the story instead of actual free-willed characters to make their own decisions.

Again, I want to stress this is not an insult, or a disparaging comment towards anyone. There was a desire for suggestions, so those are mine. I hope they're helpful.

Thanks to anyone that actually read this giant of a post. And I offer my understanding to those that skipped it entirely. Either way, take it easy, everyone. And I offer a giant kudos to the Staff that have read and contributed to this thread and avoided derisory comments to the players.

~PA

[Usurper]

I pretty much stick to most of the points you made...I try to keep myself in check when it comes to the railroad effect,though sometimes there is a predetermined end to a mini event that will lead to the player's decisions in a larger plot based around it.

[grant]

Yes and No

I do not expect map changes to be made because of something my character did, not unless the DM's had it planed that way... and that is not ME making the change, it is something preordained that any other character could make it happen.

However, this is completely understandable.

When it comes to eliminating an NPC that sends shock waves through a faction, I should be able to make a change. Though it should be rare that that a single PC brings down a leader type.

On the other hand I have seen so many re-occurring and indestructible NPC's that should be acting like a shadowy leader in the background instead are acting like common foot soldiers that I can not blame other players who see one of these show up and then have their toons just wander away rather than bother with yet another futile encounter with this NPC.