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  • #31
    Zob, your posts are always of that ilk. Long and critical. I took the time to read it, and I did gleam some good feedback from it. If you want to be a squeeky wheel, you're going to get the grease.

    Maevan, when you say "we," do you mean the staff or the players?
    "Microsoft has to move the Reply All button further away from the Reply button. It's the computer equivalent of putting the vagina so close to the sphincter."
    -Bill Maher

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Phantom Lamb View Post
      Maevan, when you say "we," do you mean the staff or the players?
      I wasn't involved in any of those events as a player so i cannot say whether the players screwed it up too or not. But why didn't Shars' abaddon become a part of the world and the history? Who knows about that story at all these days? And why did we have to rollback Sestra like if that plot never happened?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Maevan2 View Post
        I wasn't involved in any of those events as a player so i cannot say whether the players screwed it up too or not. But why didn't Shars' abaddon become a part of the world and the history? Who knows about that story at all these days? And why did we have to rollback Sestra like if that plot never happened?
        I'm not sure I agree with you on those points Maevan.
        • Shar's Abaddon:
          This was an LH plot. This is in-game, but it's not in-use currently because the person driving this plot isn't here anymore. We're looking to use it down the road for a battleground, perhaps. If you have ideas for it, please let us know. I'd love to use this, but we have no real current plans for it.
        • Sestra:
          I see a LOT of changes in Sestra. Thayans in the mines. Corps de Grace, now in the Arbiters' Alliance, is in charge of the city. There's a new exarch. There's a temple of Kelemvor.
        I think you're looking at these places as a mapper, not as a character. Yeah, Sestra looks a lot like it used to, but I would hardly say it is the same.

        Gonna take a break from responses here. I'm becoming arguementative. But I think folks are remembering the negatives with much more vivid detail than the positives here.
        "Microsoft has to move the Reply All button further away from the Reply button. It's the computer equivalent of putting the vagina so close to the sphincter."
        -Bill Maher

        Comment


        • #34
          Personally, I think the Yuan-Ti events sort of pettered out because they were made to drag on. Eventually, people lost interest. It wouldn't be the only plotline to have this happen to it. After all, real life interfered, made progress there less convenient, etc. It's not because it was bad. It just... happened. And it happened in a way that made it better for it to just be shelved.

          The Yuan-Ti rollback wasn't all bad. I personally thought that it was like Sestra reminded everyone that she existed, and that thing could happen down there. Because before that, Sestra was very forgettable. Now, it's significantly less so to those whom remember this.

          Thanks to those events, it's now a much better established settlement in the Sundered Valley. It has more history, and some players have invested much more with it. It justified the presence of Yuan-Ti player characters as well.

          A lot of good came from it, really.
          Maia Nanethiel ~ Moon Elf Female Ranger

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Phantom Lamb View Post
            • I see a LOT of changes in Sestra. Thayans in the mines. Corps de Grace, now in the Arbiters' Alliance, is in charge of the city. There's a new exarch. There's a temple of Kelemvor.

            I think you're looking at these places as a mapper, not as a character. Yeah, Sestra looks a lot like it used to, but I would hardly say it is the same.
            Imagine how an old player returns and walks around. There are two new temple and the guards might wear different uniforms and report to somebody different. But Sestra is still the place it was 2 years ago.

            Maybe i am not roleplayer enough to feel the difference. But when i think of how long the the lizard plot lasted and what drastic changes it meant for Sestra at that time i feel that it would have been a better choice to let people abandon Sestra (even though the lizards were defeated) and let them build a new town and let the ruins of Sestra become a place for the outcast, the shady, the sick and dirty that have no other place.

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            • #36
              We have one true mapper, and I was told his time was being devoted heavily to the island areas. We have to work within staff constraints sometimes, sorry man.
              "Microsoft has to move the Reply All button further away from the Reply button. It's the computer equivalent of putting the vagina so close to the sphincter."
              -Bill Maher

              Comment


              • #37
                I think there's an inherent fear of changing anything that relies on a mapper, Maev, homie. Sundren throughout it's history has often had long turn arounds on maps so if someone says something as simple as "I want to burn down that barn and never see it again" the DM's are likely to avoid this problem or make it burned until server reboot.

                To Zobberaz:

                I was being constantly reminded by GBX on how lucky my faction was, as if he was constantly putting in doubt that it deserved to have, say, a stronghold.
                I can't even remember ever thinking anything along those lines. How far back are we talking? I had no idea Maia was ever in a faction. I recall her running about as an Elven priestess and that was about it. I know AAAAGES ago on Sundren we took a view that different DMs should handle different facets, which worked for awhile, but then one DM would vanish or not care anymore and a whole group of players would be left hanging. I think Ash took alot of the Elven/Druid stuff over in that day and pushed to grow an Elven land scape and more, but then Ash stopped supporting it. So it slowly just got consumed.

                I've been on Sundren day 1. Today people ask "Why don't player factions get much support?" and I have to pull out history on this. People who are day 1 players may remember a player faction that got tons of support, the Vigilant Eye. They got uniforms, DMs worked with them, plots moved, position grew, then the players just stopped logging in for various reasons. Real life, sick of NWN2 bugs, In-game girlfriends that quit so the other half quit too. Eventually you have no players in a group who want to leave a mark and a ton of time that just vanished.

                That's just one example of a faction who was player driven . Not all will turn out this way, but in all my experience across many servers from NWN1 to NWN2 they tend to be very whimsical and monopolizing on DM time which can be very limited depending on DMs.

                Alot of the above problems can be easily avoided by players being a little more down to earth. It's a sandbox that allows people to bring in their own sand. The moment this fails is the moment a player goes to DMs and asks them to figure out the sand for them. For example the last request I took from a player followed these lines:

                "I want to capture a live vampire with this power so I can interrogate it."

                Cool. Now I play referee, move the pieces around the player, and let them accomplish their goal. How a good number of requests come to me:

                "I don't know what to do with myself." <-- I get this one alot, or...

                "I want this (insert request here) end result but don't know how to get there."

                Those sort of requests mean that the burden of work is completely shifted off the player and placed on the DM.

                I'm more than willing to help Elves make some sort of mark on the world if they present their requests and fulfill their requests along the way. If they want to place a base in the world, is it presented with "We want a home base we can run around in." or is it presented like "We've made contact with the exigo and worked out trade negotiations with this lumbering group so we can build this cabin here in this location. We have these security forces watching out for us." etc etc. They've already done all the work, wrote the game plan, built up the lore. When it gets to that point, all I have to do is play referee and show up to speak for NPCs.

                Another example is when I watched Cirion handle the Corps de Grace. He was interviewing a person and I could just tell he had his own game plan in his head and where he wanted to go. I could tell alot of the conflicts he faced from Thayans and a road map to his goal. I didn't have to tell him these things. The work load for me consists of very little at that point and he essentially supports himself until I have to hand his new recruits a few keys and shove a bit of conflict now and then.

                If a Halfling wants halfling gods repped in the world, the Halfling has to ask himself how far he's willing to go to get it. What steps he's gotta take to push it ahead. If he is another face in the crowd of people at exigo campfires that kick it with friends, tomorrow that's what he'll be. However, if he's out getting support wherever he can find it IC and pushing interactions towards his goal, eventually it's likely to pay off.

                Sundren has a history, and that history is going to be set in stone because it's the past. These are the factions. These are the governments. These are the mentalities of the people. If you want to move them, take what you know and move them how you are able. I can't write the background lore for more factions because I've already written enough to fill pages of books. If you build your own lore and push your own way, spreading out room for yourself, you're going to have a much higher degree of success in your efforts. Phantom and I have spent alot of time on the existing factions with Items, NPCs, systems, scripts, etc. A few paragraphs in a character request expecting us to do all of that again on the fly isn't going to be enough to move us into starting all over again from a step 1. However, a diligent person who does all these things for themselves letting us fill the DM role as they go is much easier to manage.

                There's Shar's Abaddon as Maeven said. Are there players out there who have any sort of interest in it? I have no idea. I know Usurper has interest in it, and that's about it, because he's the only one putting his ideas out there. If players want everything to rely on Usurper's whims then I guess they're content with that, but someone poking me with their gameplan for the day is likely to get more reward for themselves than if they did nothing and waited.

                As quickly as I worked in the Temple of Sune, there's a reason I only put 2 priests and a Monk in it. Sune's future relies more heavily upon Sunite players than any other Temple in my mind. So if players want to see anything happen beyond a temple sitting there, they'll have to decide to move it.

                The reason for this poll was for me to gauge player's feelings. Players feel we have a set world that has to stay as it is. After the last couple of days talking to Devs, Phantom, Saulus, etc. I can tell you, nobody feels that way. We'll have our own ideas of what we can do to bring dynamics, but I'm opening an invitation to the players right now to try to push and see if things don't work out more favorably.

                If in the past I was closed off, or against the idea of change, I have no idea. I also forget a great deal of what happened or is happening. I can't even remember events I've run only a month ago, for instance. So help me to help you. If I said I'd do something, I may have forgotten. There's alot on the dev plate that relies on me so having some patience, but also some intiative to guide me where you'd like, will pay off. I can promise that. And I'm sure many DMs feel very similarly.

                I guess in summary I'm saying. You can stick a castle in the sand box. You can expand it's walls. You just have to work with the box to figure out how to go about it, not have me dictate to you how.

                And yes, playing an Elf with strong Elven-style history trying to bring that history into Sundren will be harder than having a history of being a Soldier in the Legion.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Rereading my post, I wanted to add, I don't mind helping people find direction. I do help people in this way alot and when I'm able, but it really is best people get a sense of direction with their characters pretty swiftly so we can work with them.

                  Also be available! Priorities tend to go for those who are available often. I know real world gets in the way, but letting me know "Yo, I can't be around much for the next week" can help me to prioritize alot better than just being gone and never hearing from you.

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                  • #39
                    I want to thank GBX for opening up this topic. As I said before I don't believe it is "yes or no" like the poll suggests rather a little more complex than that. I am guessing you knew that when you posted the poll. I am also guessing you knew what you would find.

                    So far I have read some great criticisms, from players I highly respect, Kael and Zorb especially. I can tell a lot of thought went into writing those pots. Nowhere in them did I find anything even remotely tasting of sour grapes.

                    What I have read from the staff suggests a strong desire for exactly what most (bedlam seems to be the exception ) players seem to want. But they need help too.
                    Player requests need to be well thought out and well defined yet still flexible enough to fit the developer's capacities.

                    I think it is clear that everyone understands, or perhaps now BETTER understands, how much effort goes in to making changes/developing new content. I think everyone can agree that, changes and new developments should be for the good of the server as a whole. One elf running around trying to set up a devout temple in the middle of predominantly human lands.. or Two characters demanding a faction to represent their characters are obviously not operating with these ideas in mind. That said, I have seen a number of player initiatives meet stone walls. Or perhaps have felt like they we talking to stone walls.

                    I think this thread is proof that the sandbox is big enough for everyone but it needs to be okay for people to answer honestly.

                    I pose this question as a player:

                    How would you like us to present player based initiatives? In forum? As a PM, if so to whom? In Help request? In Character request?

                    What do we do when we do not get a reply? (This a big problem for me, some of my thoughts or requests are ignored/forgotten/set aside.) *I understand there are only so many DM's to go around and many requests to read judge and issue verdict but what does it mean when we don't get a reply?*

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by gbbishop View Post
                      (bedlam seems to be the exception )
                      Cuz I'm an exceptional dude

                      And I don't mind seeing changes come from player actions. I have even seen changes on other servers come from the actions of my toons. Kinda nice to see it happen, I'm just not going to go out of my way to push anything my characters would not care enough about to bother.
                      Ursus Ahrahl: Vengeful Desert Warrior (http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ursus_Ahrahl)
                      Zaphram Babblerocks: Silly Gnome Tinkerer
                      Ronon Darkholme: Eye and ear of the Night Watch of Kelemvor's Eternal Order (http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.ph...onon_Darkholme)
                      Jakomyn Moriarty: Misunderstood Calishite mage (http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.php?title=Jakomyn_Moriarty)
                      Turin Greyhold: Ex-mercenary paladin of Torm (http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.ph...reyhold,_Turin)
                      Alexandros Pentacost: 1/2 Orc Cleric of the Red Knight
                      "Remember, Private..Friendly Fire is not a nice warm place you and your hippy buddies sit around at night toasting marshmallows and singing Kumbaya." --Me to one of my troops way back when

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by BedlamX View Post
                        Cuz I'm an exceptional dude
                        well Yeah... that's what I said.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          If it's something that can be done on the spot, you can hit up DMs in game. If it needs consideration, Character Request forum is your best bet. If you don't get a reply you can always bump it. USually the reason for no reply is a DM posted in DM forums about it, a discussion happened, but nobody truly finalized a decision so the stuff sometimes gets stuck in Limbo and a bump can help finalization occur.

                          PMs are per DM requests. I wouldn't make general inquiries in a PM because a DM might not be around for awhile (So it sits in their inbox) or they have no idea how to address that particular question. It's better if requests are in a place everyone can look at it and wrap their heads around it.

                          I want people to understand this too. Just because you make a request and it is either denied or fails doesn't mean we're trying to stop initiative. Methods matter alot. I've seen some VEEEEERY ludicrous overarching methods to achieve a goal when something much simpler can be done. And the complex is generally prone to failure. It doesn't mean success can't be possible, but the more connection points from A to B means a higher failure rate (Generally).

                          Seriously consider an idea before you post and honestly ask yourself a few questions:

                          1) Can I simplify what I'm trying to do to reach my goal?

                          2) If I seek faction assistance, what gain do they have in assisting me and do they even trust me? (Good reputation helps)

                          3) If it's against a faction, how will they respond in kind to my actions?

                          They seem like relatively simple questions, but if you saw some requests, they do seem to bypass these three ideas.

                          Just to give an example that's been based off a few requests I've seen to help you understand what I mean:

                          I want to contact the Kurz Cartel to steal incriminating documents so we can setup a Soldier as a necromancer by having Dark Advent summon skeletons and placing a sword at the scene.

                          Going through the three questions:

                          1) Can I simplify my goal? Could just mind control the guy and have him say he murdered someone with undead. Get an illusion to look like him and do it. Etc etc.

                          2) Why would factions work with you? Why would Kurz Cartel help you? Anything that goes wrong in the theft could blame them and get people locked up in their faction. Did you even consider paying them? They need a benefit as well.

                          Why would the Dark Advent work with you? You're a nobody to them with a sceme.

                          3) Who you're going against? I'm facing trained law enforcement who don't just take everything at face value until they investigate. Are they likely to find documents suddenly missing? Are they likely to suddenly believe a soldier with excellent service is a necromancer? That guy probably built up alot of friends who are more than willing to stick their necks out to keep dude's name good.


                          Just think things through a bit more and you'll usually find a much easier and successful route to accomplishing the same goals. Unless the goal itself is obviously lofty. I commend people on having goals and don't want people to feel discouraged if some fail, but I can't ignore every factor for everyone to make them happen

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I have already made a thread for stuff like character development,faction events,and small event requests in general.

                            Those that have posted their ideas or suggestions have been worked with or responded to in some kind of way concerning their requests..

                            I have seen alot of views for the thread,but very few posts in regards to the actual topic of the thread.As a DM, I have reached out to you as players to get something rolling for your characters by creating the thread and giving you a little freedom for suggestions and ideas that we can act out in-game.However,it seems to me that only a few people have made use of the thread and maybe everyone else is clueless to what they want?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Wow, GBX. You've just helped me establish that my memory was pretty awesome. Thanks!

                              The Council of Voices was a player-run elven faction that came out weeks after the very first server wipe (which was needed for adjustments because of loot exploits and such). Something about Sundren authorities siding with a Lolthian drow rather than elves there convinced Maia that elves needed to look out for themselves since the laws of the human lands wouldn't... so she managed to gather a small following (half-a-dozen players for starters) and make it so that they would keep in tight communication to support one another within the valley. That eventually grew from there.

                              Euniana was the DM that took it upon herself to try and follow up on our small little projects, which were supposed to ultimately lead to us having our little tree village nook in the Viridale Forest (we were around a dozen strong by then). we ultimately benefited from a shortcut in that we received favorable regard from Evermeet elves whom wanted to open up trade relations with Sundren for their ore. To establish a presence (to which the council of voices faction made for a good proxy), they dispatched a sun elf ambassador and his following and they ultimately purchased a fort of the Sundarian Outriders (a part of the Legion? I was never sure), and it was renovated a bit before ending up as our 'headquarters zone'.

                              GBX, you actually created a Moon Elf Priestess of Sehanine once to roleplay with us some too.

                              Euniana eventually had to let go of the Elf DM role and the job was left to another person whom I forget her name, but that she was pretty famous for being the player of a rather strong priestess of Eilistraee. That DM... was DM pretty much only in name - she insisted she wanted the title and the responsability, but barely ever lifted a finger to help out. She felt more like a player with DM powers to me that she used whenever she thought it convenient.

                              Anyhow, despite the slack, we had a stronghold and were going pretty strong then - there were drow and vampires to deal with back then. It was a drought of direct elf-dm-attention we coped with until false-elf-DM was booted out of office and that Ash came in... and Ash was a breath of fresh air for us. One thing she seemed to want was to work to make the Circle of Voices more integrated with the nature faction... and that was sort of fine since going away from the elitist elf clique thing not only helped us involve more people, but it also mixed us more into the rest of the happenings of the setting with a perspective (nature) that generally interests elves anyways. We even made meetings and grew ties with, namely, the clerics and paladins of the Triad to face common foes.

                              The Council of Voices ended when Venoshia happened, GBX. Not before. We had awesome stuff going on close to the end, thanks to Ash's awesomeness and some of the great roleplayers we had around (like Garion's story with his innate penchant for necromancy, how he was lured into the Dark Advent and that we struggled to rescue him/redeem him/have him be able to live with it).

                              Ok. Good. History lesson over. Moving on.

                              * * *

                              Sundren now does not need an elven faction at present. There was never enough impetus to start something like that. When I returned, I realized that Maia lacked the trigger point to want to ardently champion elvenkind the way she did. Plus, most elves were well integrated in the Sundered Valley and didn't seem to suffer from the more rampant racism that seemed to be going on in much, much earlier days. Also, the population of elven players seems scarce, or actually not strongly elvish (i.e.: elf cleric of Helm. lol wut? Isn't Corellon the elf god of guardianship and protection? Why pray an human analog when you have an elven one?) so it'd kind of fall flat.

                              It just wasn't needed. And besides, the cliquish aloof elf faction had been done once - while I was playing Maia again I was in no hurry to start over. It had been a lot of responsability, politicking and such.

                              * * *

                              If I'd have recommendations, it'd be the following:

                              ~ Representations that non-humans do live in the Sundered Valley, not only in presence, but also in ethnicity. Such as, where we live, we have a chinatown, and the things around there look more chinese. At least the writing does.

                              However, doing that requires a healthy amount of work... and I really believe not so much is needed. Usually, religion is the best way to show that off, I think. Maybe there could be a shrine to yondalla someplace close to where some halflings are. Maybe the Sureshot store could have a small space dedicated to Corellon because he would be the storeowner's patron deity. I mean, orc baddies get big temples of evilness... so elf/dwarf/gnome/halflings could have little things sprinkled around to make the statement that "not only humans live there".

                              I quite understand why the main temples are important and that there is always going to be a focus on them... but let's face it, people are going to make characters that break the mold and pray other deities. Having these little things might make them slightly less feel like outsiders. Small details like that could go a long way.

                              ~ The other thing I would have had liked to see was in regard to NPC reactions toward characters that are higher level (like, a level 15 shouldn't be treated like a level 5 if the DM has at all any insight of some events the said character lived through), within reason.

                              For example, let's say that a higher level barbarian returns to the Viridale outskirts and that a DM is present there. The typical reaction I usually see is usually how PCs are just treated like meddling adventurers whom have little stake being in said place (that also happened around the Veritas' mountain).

                              Rarely, though, have I seen the reaction of "Mister Bob! How good to see you again. We've missed your help and really could use some extra hands."

                              Another example could be a legion guard abusing of his authority to fine people and profit from it. Somehow, though, I fail to see why the said guard can muster the nerve to keep doing it when his mark appears to be a rather pissed off blue-skinned elf that happens to wear mithral armor and that has a magically crackling sword on her hip. If the guard is told to shove off and leave alone... does it even need something remotely close to an intimidate check? Doesn't common sense come into play?

                              The last example would be to have an accomplished adventurer come forward to, say, meet with a town's exarch. In my experience, the people on the way to the exarch would just tell the 'nobody' to shove off - even if that nobody happened to be, say, someone like Gandalf the Grey in stature and stuff, just because he was a player character. I've seen nothing like "We'll ask... sorry, he's busy. Would you like to take an appointment?"

                              Maybe my experiences with that were just bad. Maybe me and the people placed in those situations happened to be in those situations with a DM sadly lacking in omniscience ( =P ). But that small thing, recognition - especially in regard to the caliber of the individual - is also a strong contributor to helping someone feel he has a place in the setting. The DM that remembers that, considers it and applies it gives the concerned player a rare gift, I feel.
                              Maia Nanethiel ~ Moon Elf Female Ranger

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                You do realize nobody documented crap back then, right? I Don't think a single post was ever made about Council of Voices. We certainly havn't deleted any posts and searches have turned up zip from any DMs. I used to beg and plead for people to document SOMETHING to let people know what's going on, but it fell on deaf ears. I can easily see why going from that to now would be frustrating though since you put all that effort in and it's nowhere to be seen.

                                I like to consider that time period more of a "Dark Years" as silly as it might sound. We had hard enough time finding people who wanted to DM and much of the server wasn't even built. There was alot of trying some things and seeing what worked and failed.

                                I want to Address the Level thing in particular.

                                As for level 15 being treated like level 15, level 15's (Unlike P&P or permy server) can take literally two weeks to get on Sundren depending on your play times and focus. That means if you make a character right now, and start playing hardcore, in about two weeks you can see yourself at 15. And it doesn't carry the weight it would in a P&P game or a world where you may be risking something to achieve it. What I mean by that is, anyone who makes a character can and will be level 15 as long as they don't quit the server. If half those who ever registered on the forums played and didn't quit, 1000 level 15s running around suddenly has no meaning.

                                In D&D terms a level 15 "Hero" comes along once in a blue moon. In Sundren, they can be everywhere. Level 15, while powerful, treated like they would be in P&P suddenly make the server look like City of Heroes (I recommend looking at a video of this game to get an idea how cheesy I mean). Where the people who overpower the world around them outnumber the normal people. Even level 5's overpower most of the world around them in P&P.

                                I really want people to understand just how powerful level 15's to 20's are in P&P. So consider the Elven wars where all the Ilythir and Gold Elves (Drow and Sun Elves) Were warring their butts off. The Drow were getting their arses kicked. Lolth decided to send ONE Balor into the war, just one, and suddenly the Drow were kicking so much ass in the war that the gods had to step in. ONE CR20 creature. A creature that if spawned in Sundren, players go "I'm not afraid of you!" and kill it and all it's buddies Balors are quite literally based on Balrogs from Tolkien realms. You've all seen the Lord of the Rings movie. That thing walked out and the army of goblins was like NOOOOOOOOOO but Gandalf fought it and gave his life essentially to beat it.

                                Level 15's are like Gandalf and we have a server full of them. Every day around the camp fire it's like super heroes greeting each other So while level 15 should seem to be something incredible, in reality it's like a wizard going from barely knowing any cantrips to unlocking the secrets to ripping the chaos of the elemental planes into our own, but it only took him two weeks. Or a priest going from barely a servant of a god until he is the most favored servant to where he commands the souls of the dead to return to life on a whim, transcending the mortal coil. And he's only been praying two weeks. This is why the scaling factor had to occur.

                                In Sundren, this has been counter acted by all the normal people being scaled with the level rate of Sundren PCs to make it "Believable". In other words, there are level 15 soldiers. Level 15 enemies. Level 8 commoners, etc. Level 15 in Sundren I'd probably equate more to "Level 5" in P&P due to the environment scaling. Sure, you can beat alot of people up but you're not going to destroy the planet. Look at Veritas, for example, they're a bunch of rebel soldiers, not elite ninja, and they're 15 - 18. Bloodmaim are just Orcs who were blooded by whatever forces. They're up there in level too. These same creatures would probably be level 3 - 7 in P&P. A balor would probably be scaled to level 25 or 30 to be accurate according to how Sundren is leveled.

                                We also don't want to send a message to people "Hey, reach level 15 as fast as possible, because until you do, there is nothing you can do." If level 15's show up and just shove everything around, level lowbies are going to feel like there's nothing they can do in the world unless they also get level 15. So it actually begins to encourage everyone to super fast grind until they get high enough level to "Start roleplaying". This may sound silly to you, but this is literally a phrase I've heard VERY often on Sundren and other worlds.

                                "I'm going to get to level 20 then I'll start roleplaying."

                                People literally say that in those exact words. I like to call that the Internet Tough Guy phenomena But that's off topic.

                                Now, I don't treat level 5's on Sundren the same as level 15s despite all that said above. Above is a guideline, but not a rule. Even if it takes 2 weeks for some (Probably 4 weeks or so for most) it's still time they put in and should see some reward for it with prestige. I can tell you that I do indeed choose carefully who fears and who doesn't level 15 characters. I've had exigo guard terrified of people who are higher level. Hell, I actually watched a level 15 kill a bunch. I have NPCs defer to higher powered PCs quite often. In fact, I prefer it in most cases! Otherwise events tend to go "Let's run off to NPC xyz because he has the power to do something I'm not able!" or "We PCs will sit back and watch the NPCs handle everything." I'd rather level 15's be strong enough to be the difference, but not so strong that they are uncontestable by NPCs, does that make sense?

                                So in a sense we've scaled up the world so one wizard can't end a city's life in a Meteor Swarm like they could in P&P. Or destroy a whole city in an earthquake, like they could in P&P, but the goal wasn't to make you seem powerless and if that's how it comes off it might just be that one DM. Just two day ago I watched a single level 15 devestate a bunch of vampire forces with a couple friends who were much lower. He left completely unscathed.

                                Also, reputation matters alot. I can tell you, I treat notorious and well known people with alot of respect from NPCs. Kaizen, for example, got QUITE well known in the world to the point everyone was like "Damn it! It's Kaizen!" Alot of people become that well known to me and therefore NPCs I interact with. But it isn't their levels that do that, it's their actions during scenarios. If I see level 15's who just act as faces in the crowd, I don't think any NPCs in the world are going to treat them much different, but if they're trying to take charge of the situation, or stand up for what they believe in, even smite people and say "I'm the dread lord! Remember it!" then people and NPCs will remember their names.
                                Last edited by GodBeastX; 02-09-2010, 12:22 PM.

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