NWN2 Expansion "Mask of the Betrayer" Announced!

[CrimsonTears]

No spoiling at all.
Cordiality and a friendly environment != spoiling.

At least in most of my experiences, the DM/GM is a friend who's playing -with- the players for everyone to have fun, not a "DM vs players" arena.

Allowing players to adjust their characters based on new options never ruined the fun of anyone in the groups I was part of where that took place. Never.

[Zoberraz]

What CrimsonTears said. *nods*

I've had one of my characters change from a Fighter to a Barbarian simply because everyone at the table felt it suited him better. I had a sorcerer change for a warmage because it felt more appropriate and in the spirit of the character. I've had a druid/sorcerer whom was splitting both classes evenly because his culture did not see a distinction between arcane and divine magic go Arcane Hierophant (from races of the Wilds) instead and take advantage of the practiced spellcaster feat in replacement to a couple of archery feats he had barely ever used. I've had a dwarf cleric reconsider his path to become a warpriest and exchange one of his prerequisite feats to Augment Healing.

End result? Everyone was happy. We just spent half of one game session looking over new books and discussing each character archetypes and what resulted was a better party balance, renewed interest in the players' characters and more fun.

[Ash]

@CrimsonTears.

I'm sorry, you failed your diplomacy roll completely. I still disagree, and the answer is still no.

@Zoberraz

Much better roll, but then for your second roll you got a critical fail, because...

"End result? Everyone was happy."

That one I don't buy. At all.

As has been stated already - this isn't open to negotiation. No rebuilds. Start a new character.

[Grigori]

This is why it's good to not powerlevel and just take things as they come for characters... If you take it slow and steady, you have time to take advantages of the new classes and what not. My 'mysthic theurge harper' concept is still level 3 and if they do come out with the M/T class, I may actually be able to take advantage of it because I'm taking my time with the character.

An analogy -

Your GM for your weekly pen and paper game buys one or two new supplements that introduce a number of new character creation and development options.

Does your GM -

A - Allow you to "rebuild" your current characters so that they can take advantage of the new material.
B - Make it available to NPCs and only for further character development.

I've been GMing for a very long time, and I can tell you this - it's NEVER been A.

[CrimsonTears]

Diplomacy roll? Those aren't required to state facts, it isn't an agree or disagree matter But yeah, you can always ignore facts, like saying you don't buy the -fact- DMs out there are happy to see the players happy with their characters, as Zob mentions *shrugs*

I suppose people can only hope it will be reconsidered if the new content can drastically change a character that was "adapted" to fit in with what was initially available. Else, I won't blame anyone who "powerlevels" a character more suited to what they had in mind, since the one they possibly spent months playing will be stuck 'as is'.

[Grigori]

Are those manticores, rust monsters, and shambling mounds?

A few screenshots of the expansion: http://nwvault.ign.com/fullstory.php?id=28391

[Ash]

"like saying you don't buy the -fact- DMs out there are happy to see the players happy with their characters"

Oh I'm sorry, you're unhappy with your character so, hey, let's rebuild it.

Maybe I've just been unfortunate and had a few too may players pull that excuse for a rebuild. And had way too much time wasted arguing with players about it.

Sometimes, just sometimes, a player asks for a few minor tweaks to a character, and the result isn't a more powerful character, but in fact a weaker character that just seems to fit their concept a little more neatly.

Guess what. I still tell them no. It's wasting time that could be better spent, and if the player is really that upset that he doesn't get his changes, go find another game, or start a new character!

There are many ways to be happy with a character without half a game-session wasted on rebuilding it.

[GodBeastX]

Time for GBX's all encompassing reply since he's been out of the discussion and just catching up.

Saulus and Ash raise valid points that I see happening alot. People go a direction with their characters and say to themselves "Meh, I think it'd be better if I go X, cuz this isn't what I want." or they try something for awhile and want to try something else without doing the usual effort of levelling up to actually try that something else.

"Well, I've been a wizard all this time... but I think I want to try being a sorceror."

So make a sorceror and level it up.

Now, there have been people rebuilt in the past. This isn't the players coming to DM's and asking for feat changes or class changes because they are sick of things. It has been changes based upon things such as Domains not matching Deities, or DM's recommending it.

I think that if, for example, Red Wizard became a class and the Thayan Enclave was still active, the DM would probably recommend all the players in the Enclave be switched for a class. It would only make sense since all these players are basically Red Wizards to begin with.

Basically what I'm saying is, if a player comes to us and says "I want a rebuild" the response will basically be No. If a DM offers a Rebuild, then that is up to the DM.

While you may have super valid RP reasons to ask for a rebuild, you have to consider the majority of people around you. We give one valid one, people go "Hey, you had her changed! Why can't I be changed for an invalid reason?!" And we tell them no. Now they feel we're playing favorites and start to spread their distaste for that policy. We can't cater to one individual without opening the door to catering for others.

This rule isn't there for us to be rule mongers or to be "mean" to players. It's got alot of reasons behind it, all of which I can't even explain in this thread.

[CrimsonTears]

I understand what you mean, X. It's just about being reasonable.

I don't think I or Zob or anyone else are talking about "I don't like being a Fighter, suit me up a Paladin". This is about an expansion that will come with new stuff. The scenario is more like "I like my character, but with X or Y or Z, which weren't available when I created the character, nor in the first 1/2/3/4/5/# months I playing him/her, he/she would do more of what he/she was supposed to be".

Is it nice for players in such positions to just hear a "tough luck, suck it up or deal with having wasted all those months playing this char"?

It's unreasonable for a 5 months old wizard to want to rebuild as a fighter. It's not unreasonable for him to want to trade some of those wizard levels for archmage levels, for exemple.

Remember, it's not about players unhappy with their characters, it's about brand new options players just couldn't predict. Expecting people to remain level 3 until Obsidian says there will be no more expansions is unreasonable

PS: And lets not treat a rebuild from the DM's point of view as if it was a "half-session" long procedure. It can be as fast as 5 minutes if the player has the whole plan set.

[Saulus]

Is it nice for players in such positions to just hear a "tough luck, suck it up or deal with having wasted all those months playing this char"?

We've already stated our policy, this is NOT a place for further discussion of the topic.

This can only be classified as a blatent desire to powergame. Insinuiating that you've wasted months on your character because you didn't get certain stats or feats is hardly a reason to declare a character as a "waste of time." Closed.