An Evil Presence

[Phantom Lamb]

Hey folks,

There's a growing trend on the server for which I need to find a solution. Problem is, I don't KNOW the solution.

In general, players who play good-aligned characters like the following:
* Playing ONE character all the time
* Hate permadeath
* Don't like to actually kill anyone in PVP
* They hate conceding loss in an event, especially to another PC

Now, some of these go with the character, and some with the player. But the trend that's developed due to this on Sundren is, we have a lot of high level GOOD PC's and very few high level EVIL PC's.

But the thing it truly needs is SMART evil. I've seen a lot of, frankly, stupid, stupid acts of evildom.
* Proclaiming yourself to follow evil gods publicly
* Attacking people when there are tons of witnesses
* Making yourself well-known as using evil magic
* Not using disguises when you're already a "marked man"

These kinds of activities aren't very smart, and will lead you towards permanent death or captivity. I REALLY want to support our evil characters, but I refuse to support evil PC's that just aren't smart.

I think our community needs to think about some things. Do you want to have events when NO DM's are around? Do you want conflict or social stuff? These things require a healthy evil population--not just numerous, but intelligent and crafty.

Bad guys, I'm not cutting you any slack. If you dig yourself a grave, you're gonna lie in it.

Good guys, STAY OUT OF LOW LEVEL AREAS. I've said this a zillion times. It's considered farming to go there repeatedly, even if you have roleplay value. Why? How can an evil PC level up if he gets busted too often by someone twice his level? If you want conflict, you need to give these folks a chance to grow.

If anyone else has things they want to suggest or propose, I'd love to hear them. I've highlighted the two things I'd like to see change, and I WILL enforce them. High level people meandering in Viridale, beware.

[Product of Void]

hmm I like playing evil charactors I only have one charactor which is evil and another that might slide that way in time.

I don't think that Evil or good is a bad thing for folks to play but the problem is how folks percieve alignments or how evil is meant to be protrayed.

Some folks say if your not known evil your not evil. Possible, though all depends on the shade of evil you want to play.

Misguided good
Self centered
Greed above all

I have played evil on many servers recently in a nwn2 server the evil worked rather well OOC and IC.

Let me lay out what the group did so you might get ideas of a good Smart evil.

First one charactor lucked into a position of goverment. Which he used to create another group of mages were the master of them all was under his thumb and had a dark secert. Later he started using the knowledge gained from the guards to enlist all the criminals from the town into his group in a second party under his subornant's control.

As time went on a large sum of money was raised for charity. The leader had himself captured by his own group unknown to them to be ransomed for the sum of gold. Which was a cover for an assasination attempt by gollems set in motion by the leader. Creating an air tight alibi.

Even going so far as to loose a finger to prove his point (well actually two to prove a second point). Then after being betrayed instead of fighting the acused they turned themselves in saying the one who betrayed them was the leader faking fear, and even a botched assasination. All to create doubt and confusion.

There was much more to it and it might be confusing it was meant to be then.

Perhaps its time to bring Shiv here....*evil grin*

[Phantom Lamb]

Well, I'd like to keep this on topic if we could. All of us have stories about particular evil deeds we've done that we're proud of, but this thread is asking how we can nurture and grow a high-level evil player base.

One suggestion you made that I like is to not take a black and white approach to it. Evils who just act "evil for the sake of evil" often fall into stupid evil traps and do stupid evil deeds. They don't have long life spans. On the other side of that coin, good guys probably shouldn't be so ready to throw someone under the bus for being "evil." There are different shades of grey.

[Ethelo]

Perhaps the evil guys are playing SO cleverly that even YOU think they're good!

I'm kidding. We do need alot more evil on the server, but the problem with clever evil is that often no-one finds out you're evil until you grow bored of your character etc. Although, it is fun doing the whole Bane evil, I thought that was big here?

[Zoberraz]

Anyone whom would like to promote an evil-faction might want to draw inspiration from what already exists in Sundren. It's a lot easier to gain support and even credibility being in Sundren openly if you end up being a part of a faction which is equally openly present.

Port Avanthyr has a Church of Umberlee, making it one of the most open evil/neutral-aligned churches in Sundren, not to mention she is also a Fury deity - that makes her adequate for nature-worshipers as well. You can go around with your follower of Umberlee adventuring; trying to amass wealth, reputation and seek to grow and gain recognition within your own church... with everybit of credibility the Red Wizards of Thay have.

The Temple of Helm in Sundren and the Temple of Red Knight in Mirokus Post both house faiths whom are at the root based on Lawful Neutral deities. It is very possible to have a Lawful Evil Inquisitor of Helm or a Lawful Evil Crusader of Red Knight trying to go for similar goals as I suggested with the Church of Umberlee. Umberleeans are more obviously evil, but both Red Knight and Helm can allow for a viper to be in the nest too.

Seeing as both faiths are fairly powerful in Sundren, it could make for unique antagonists, especially in regards to faction politicking - would an evil follower of Red Knight be that different from playing a Banite, aside from being more easily socially acceptable and with slightly different values? I figure even worshipers of Waukeen could be 'bad' and try to form a greedy mercantile empire or something... though I don't think it packs as much oomph as my earlier mentions.

Remember, divine worshipers can use the power of their deities for themselves. Their life doesn't have to be only duty in the name of the deity too - as long as they generally try to stick to certain values (so to remain good representatives of their faiths). At least that's how I see it.

Exploiting evil which can be acceptably held within Sundarian society is in my mind one of the strongest protection evil-aligned characters can have, especially if their churches have presences or an active role. Causing evil which is 'legal' within the breast of the largely 'lawful neutral' aligned country is one of the best foils to keep that level 15 paladin off you even if he feels what you are doing is wrong - and it's even more compelling if that opposition ends up being within a faith too. Basically, it forces him to try to counter you with roleplay rather than force of arms and that's a great equalizing factor.

[CorneliusVonRichten]

Or think about the Exarch at Sestra. He could employ Assassins and other ruthless characters to do what must be done, with what ever means necessary under "limited" protection from the law.

And I was always facinated by the government operative from the movie Serenity. He once stated. "What I do is evil, I have no illusions about that, but it must be done."
Somewhat like the missguided concept, doing evil to "Safe" or "Promote" his vision.

[Gamling]

I have a brief, but obvious suggestion. People who play evil characters are sometimes subject to becoming disliked OOCly because of their actions ICly. If people can keep their OOC feelings to themselves and appreciate the dastardliness of the villain, or heroics of a good guy, even... then we'd be a lot better off in terms of enjoying Sundren.

[Product of Void]

Ah well before I restarted a charactor I did it mostly due to how folks were acting towards a charactor I messed up in creating with alignment of NE instead of True Neutral.

A few folks used the detect evil and quickly either left that charactor alone, or treated her like she peed in her beer.

Evil can be misguided, so a helping hand could bend them towards good. Though a back hand of "your evil leave me alone I have no use for you, just die", puts them further on the path of evil.

Although I do enjoy evil that charactors personality is just not meant for evil just doesn't fit right.

I was almost tempted to create a Paladin to show folks how GOOD is suppose to act in my book as well. Much like I created a LG monk at one time to show folks how Lawful or good does not equal wimp.

Most succesful evil I have seen are.

The bad ass - If they want an opinion their fist will ask for it, If you step up they will push you down. They do not bend they break things. While fear is their bread and butter they mostly are safe if you get away or leave them alone.

The weasel - Good with words, great with slipping out of things. Maybe charming maybe scum, yet only have to worry if you turn your back. They might not have much of a spine, but they got alot of wit and street smarts.

The Magican - one hand moves the other is stealing your wallet. Question is if you know something or if you have been lead to assume.

The Mastermind - Smart cunning, yet not guilty of anything. ALways having someone do their ill deeds nothing can be pinned on them.

Maybe we need some Evil drives to inlist. Groups Thyan, Cartel, Veritas, and Bane could be doing things to enlist folk. I would love to see Veritas doing things to frame one group against another to create strife and war.

[Iso]

Another thing that can be done is gravitating more of the neutral characters towards supporting and assisting the evil ones - Neutral people are often less judgmental and more forgiving than even the good ones.

I mean, you've got all these holier-than-thou types running around in the city and oppressing these revolutionaries (the Banites), forcing them back into the wilderness and denying them simple and due rights to criminal court proceedings and humanitarian supplies. What kind of cruel people would do that?

You don't have to be an evil character to be a "bad guy." You can cast your lot in with anyone you want without being evil yourself. We players can support each other, can't we?

[CorneliusVonRichten]

Hmmm... something like a Neutral faction. Who intervenes when one side is getting the upper hand over the other, enforcing a balance of power.
So they sometimes do evil things and at other times they do good things, what ever is needed to keep the balance.

And yes, I saw too much Record of Lodoss War. OVA not the series.

[c2k]

Well, its a known fact that people play games to win and can get very sour if they lose. Its a known fact, and probably the reason why powergaming is so prevalent, even in the PnP game. This magnifies after months and even years of playing the same character to the point you can become attached to them and actually feel the loss when they get beat.

As for Evil, I think the problem is Banite evil is and always will be horrible. Outside the Moonsea, the Zhents are always seen as a threat and are attacked on sight. I think evil needs to work in other directions other than always signing on to Bane. On a NWN 1 server I was a part of years ago, the biggest threat to the area(Silver Marches) were the followers of Mask, while the Banites were slapped around by the Silver Flame(equivalent to the Triumvirate here).

I also think evil characters need to stop hanging around the good characters or characters that might hate their brand of evil. I can't remember how many times my barbarian was about to cleave a necromancer because they foolishly walk around with undead in the open, and then try to act friendly.

[Rhifox]

The biggest thing with evil, IMO, is having a goal. Evil just for the sake of evil just wants to do evil, will do evil, and then will die an evil death. This has immediate drama, but no lasting drama.

Evil that has a goal, that pursues that goal and just uses evil as a practical means to get it, is more likely to survive, because that kind of evil knows that exposing itself harms its goal. The goal should be what's important, not the means.

That's the biggest thing, oftentimes the goal I've seen is always just 'Evil vs Good'. That shouldn't be the goal. Evil shouldn't necessarily be versus Good. Evil should be versus Good if it furthers its plans, but only then, and only if he's safe in doing so (aka, use those stupid evil people as pawns). If Evil advances its goal by siding with Good, then that's what it should do. Evil should think of a proper goal and then do everything that it can that is practical to reach that goal.

Once Evil is in power, where nothing can touch him, that's when he can feel free to go all out on Good if he so wishes. But not before then. If people don't know he's evil until then, all the better. Evil doesn't need people to know it's evil (unless people knowing he's evil furthers his goals).

In other words, we need more properly played Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil. Evil that does evil because it benefits them, does good when it benefits him, and does nothing at all when it benefits him. The same constant is always there, doing things that benefit him.


Torture != (does not equal) Evil
Fighting Good People != Evil
Allying with only Evil People and Monster Races != Evil
Serving Evil Gods != Evil
Raising Zombies != Evil
Deliberately doing Evil Things just because they're Evil != Evil

Those things are evil actions, but they don't constitute being Evil. They are simply TOOLS, and should be treated as such. And Good tools are just as valid as these ones, because it's all about practicality. There's no need to do Evil things just to brag to people and show how Evil you are.

Doing things that benefit you and yours without any care for the people you hurt or the actions you must commit == Evil

[Arlock Starwind]

Well in my personal DnD opinion I think the most evil player anyone can be is a lawful good paladin, "You will follow or you will die."

It is simple way to put it. they force you to do something or they will kill you for being evil (if you are laying it how i feel it should be played) not that i'm saying they holy paliden's on this server arent good rp'ers.. in fact they are great ones.

as for me being smart. well the reason fot that is I believe a person should have flaws.. i'm playing a YOUNG relativly person. he was raised not to hide from the law. so naturally he would not go out of his way to avoid conflict. I do not believe this is stupid just good rp cause i gave him juat as many flaws as atributes.. (the diffrence between knoalage and wisdom so to speak)

I'm not saying everyone should have char flaws but I am just used to some of the tradions of my past whe rolling a new char i try to imagin an entier life of crap or victory he has gone though already and how he would react to new things. i don't do what I would do. that ruins the char (though I am still learning some of the rolling rules on this server.) it's alot like 2nd edition to me and i have not done those in years.

As for initial creations and lvling i don't care if my char is lvl 6 going up ageinst 2 lvl 15's a lvl `10 and whatever. ya'know. i'm not suppost to know how stong sombody is until i fight them. (I DID SAVE THE LIFE OF 2 LVL 10"s with good rp)

I don't expect good rp to get me out of every situation but i have alot of trick for an old game dog as i would expect alot from all of you. I don't carry constent expectations cause I know you all learn as much from me as I do from you.

It's a learning experiance for everyone thats the pupose of DnD and why it was even created. Gary Gygax would turn in his grave if we ever forgot that. (Rest his soul, amen).

[Anks]

Well for one, PoV. The Veritas are not evil.
Secondly if you run around doing stupid openly evil shit prepare to be stomped on and to lose because acting like that will get your character killed.

In addition I totally agree with PL wanting to change things up, and breed a healthy evil polulation. I'm personally a bit bored of playing evil. And now that i'm playing a good guy and no longer causing conflict, the rp seems a bit stale for me, i'm the type of person who loves conflict. And I was hopeing this new influx of people would bring in a healthy dose of evil but sadly it hasn't. I have a few ideas in mind to help stimulate the evil's in Sundren but I will keep them to myself as I do not wish to isolate or target individuals.

[Peridan]

I admit, this problem has become somewhat of a large issue. While I hate to boost egos, since the death of a few major Banites we've had a vacuum in the evil section of the server while others have been pushing to join the good side. I do feel like we need more evil characters that are not overtly evil and that do as the previous posters have suggested: find a goal and head towards it without any consideration for anything else.

The only real difference between good and evil, is that good allows itself to consider other people when trying to reach its goal. In fact, I think good and evil conflict within the same organization would be astounding roleplaying. My point is that the real issue is the means, not the end.

I mean, unless you want to destroy the world. That might throw a wrench or two into it.