DMFI Dice Rolls

[Kangleton]

I am posting this here, rather than in the suggestion forum, because I want to know what everyone else thinks; though, I do have an opinion of my own that is, indeed, more like a suggestion.

It is, as the title informs you, about the Dice Rolls that are permitted within the game. I think they have their uses, and I wouldn't want them removed... but, I find that they can be a hinderance to RP, for a few reasons.

1) The least significant reason, is that it kinda breaks immersion to suddenly have to roll for something, or see everyone else roll. Especially since the roll always comes at a critical moment, or a deciding factor in the currently developing plot, which is exactly the moment that you want to be as involved, and IC, as possible. That is just a personal peave of mine, and I'm sure some, or even most people aren't bothered by it like I am.

2) The main reason I don't like the DMFI rolls, is because it sucks and makes no sense. Let me elaborate:

How does one raise levels, for the most part? Experience points that are ENTIRELY unrelated to the use of conversational skills. What this ends up meaning, is that someone who has butchered more Orcs in their PC's career, will be better able to roll that Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Sense Motive check, even though they didn't do much to earn it, other than doing something unrelated to gain experience. Unfortunatly for little Johnny the smooth-talker over there, who hasn't even picked up a stick against a goblin in his life, he is outmatched because he isn't a high enough level.

How is this fair? Roll against roll, the higher level will win, even if the lower level has built their ENTIRE character concept around being a smooth-talker, or an underhanded, compulsive, social liar. Its just not right. Its one of the reasons people want to level up so fast; they want to be able to invest points in the skills they need to fulfill their character concept, just because that concept can't be fulfilled at a low level, when talking to higher-levels who really only have the IC difference of having smashed more Gnolls than the lower-levels.

Does anyone else see this as unbalancing, and kinda detrimental to RP?

[Kaldaris]

It says very bluntly in the Player's Handbook 3.5 that these skills are intended for use against NPC's only.

Addendum;

Therefore, I choose to let my roleplay dictate whether or not people think I'm lying, or if I'm scary, or if I'm able to talk them into whatever.

[Cythrawl]

Yes.
It shits me that luck or levels begin to control every element of the game. But there is no other roll that determines how you react to the first, so that's always pleasant.

'Give me all your money and then start being normal.'
Persuade roll: 60
OH BAM THERE GOES MY CHARACTER IDEA

[Kangleton]

So then... why do so many people keep telling me to roll for Bluff? If its not even supposed to be used on PC's, WHY THE HELL IS EVERYONE DOING IT!?

I hate it!

Is there a rule? Does it say that I'm not allowed to talk like a gentleman if I have no Diplomacy? If I lie, do I have to roll Bluff, or can people just RP finding out the truth through conversation, gathering of evidence, reputation, assumptions, (etc). Kinda like real life?

[Cythrawl]

I don't recall there's any rule on this topic. Say no, or roleplay in a manner irregarding the result.

[Kangleton]

Any other thoughts? Specifically from DM's, or from people who are perhaps in favor of Dice Rolls for conversation skills?

[Scavar]

Sometimes I completely ignore these rolls. I think it depends on who you are, and who you are trying to play. If you're actually a smooth talker, ignore the rolls and smooth talk, and at least from me I'll go with it.

As for other rolls, I do spot and such all the time, because those generally make sense.

[InfamousJoe]

I agree with you Kangleton. Dice rolls are not meant to be used against other players, they were only meant to be used against NPCs. The reason being that the players shouldn't have to rely on the dice rolls to tell them how their character should react to a certain situation, it should be up to the player and their ability to RP.

[Mighty_Draco]

Well, I think my only problem with it is that NWN2 doesn't have sense motive so a bluff of 20+ means most people can't beat the roll anyways. I have to agree with Scavar that you should just smooth-talk. I don't think you should have too much trouble with bluffing at low levels anyways.

[Mighty_Draco]

I agree with you Kangleton. Dice rolls are not meant to be used against other players, they were only meant to be used against NPCs. The reason being that the players shouldn't have to rely on the dice rolls to tell them how their character should react to a certain situation, it should be up to the player and their ability to RP.

I think the dice rolls are valuable for things like Hide, Lore, and the like at least.

[Kangleton]

Well, yeah... Hide/Move Silently make perfect sense, since those are rolls that the engine will actually make for you, if you actually use stealth. So, you're really doing what the game naturally does on its own, just in a slightly different context.

But for Lore? What could you actually use Lore for? Sometimes players will say "If you want to identify my secret necklace, you need a Lore of X", or "To detect enchantments on my staff, you need to roll a 10 or higher"... but who comes up with these DC's anyways? I dont find it TOO unreasonable, but it does seem a little random, that the figures are just kinda made up.

[Krya Flacongrace]

I have come across this in game and have been told to roll a Insert roll check here against their Insert roll

And I'm guilty from time to time of simply typing *He incants a spell* then saying your lying ... ( eg ...when I know 100% full well that I don't have a wart on the end of my nose )... to the utter frustration of the other PC ... who then proceeded to tell me occ'ly that is against the rules and I need to roll a check..

So I decided to counter it with a lore check, backed it up with the required knowledge.. again he informed me I had to roll the required check...

Anyways.. It ended with the said player being a pregnant goldfish and walking away... *shrugs*

I also have had a very good RP with Handsome-Gamers (I think thats his logon) Krutz where we were having a heated argument, the intimidate roll only came out to add weight behind his last statement which was to move out of the way of get taught a lesson... I countered with a buff and he countered with a something I cant quite remember... anywayz it got to the point where we ended up shedding blood (Love the .subdual command) and my bluff proved to be prophetic ..

So I'm for Insert roll here being used, but being use in a considerate way.. I wont roll a Insert roll here who is rated Effortless for example...

So the point of the thread is, if someone likes to put points into these areas to flesh out their chars (Which is the way I see it personally) then they can. Just dont expect people to roll in a set way as there is no set rule, fomula or standard. My char(s) will act in the way that would most likely counter a said roll ... If he/she fails then thats the way the cookie crumbles ...

[Kaldaris]

Roleplay, not rollplay.

[Maevan2]

Roleplay, not rollplay.

My words! I usually don't use dice rolls for mental abilities. It is ok for situations like "tries to grab X" but when it comes to my character's personality i prefer to use the idea i have of my character. Of course that also means that you must accept that you character sometimes looes his "internal" dice roll

[sparkeh]

It think it just comes down to common sense when to use rolls and how to react when someone rolls at you.

Bluff is a good example. Actually, I understand, the DC for the bluff is supposed to be modified depending on the attempted bluff. Just rolling a bluff check doesn't really do the job. Therefore if someone attempts to bluff me on some ridiculous story or something that is at complete odds to what my char believes then it just wont stick.

My wizard Peppington has had some fun chats with people who are either bending the truth or outright lying to him. Because he is supposed to be gullible (and the subject matter was something he knew nothing about) he swallowed every word without make a bluff check and much fun ensued.

One thing that does annoy me a little is that some people don't seem to respect the Natural 1 and 20 rules, but hey nevermind.