RP conflict

[Fateful Encounter]

The Legion claims sovereignty over the entire valley. The Church of Helm supports the Legion's claim (as do all goodly churches in the valley for that matter). The Black Hand has actual control over Sestra, but the Legion, the Helmites and the Triumvirate do not recognize that claim officially. Privately, internally, they likely recognize the reality of the situation, but they will not accept Black Hand laws over the Legion's anywhere in the valley. The only reason the goodly churches and paladins in the valley have not gone to try and kill off the Black Hand in Sestra is that they understand the attempt would be suicide.

Don't forget also that a paladin has duties to uphold beyond laws of men. Eradication of evil is a large part of their vows to their Gods. Paladins cannot escape this responsibility just by going out into the wilderness.

[nezzerscape]

Its funny but independent of who claims what, in my experience, the Black Hand is the most lawful of the groups. Grant it, its lawful evil. (and, yes I played team good for most of my time here).

Nez

[Taintedglory]

Depends entirely on the Paladin in question, Fated. I know alot of DMs hate this argument and its entirely opinionated. A Paladin does not have to worship a deity whos goals and purpose involves erradicating evil. Some have other goals. Sune Paladins tend to lean towards spreading love, passion, and beauty everywhere, and yes that involves killing evil at some respect, but not every evil person is out to scar the world.

But lets go on to other Gods for paladins, why would the deity Jergal force his paladins to erradicate evil where ever it may be? A Paladin of Jergal would never vow to slaughter evil on sight. He would instead vow to make sure everyone meets their death, at the exact right time. YEs he may seek out evil to do so, but he might also seek out good aswell, and bring them their justified death.

Lets look at Paladins, and what it says in splat books and core rule books. Now I know it says in some of them to erradicate evil, but evil is subjective to their deities wishes. (Which is why we sometimes call evil Paladins Anti-Paladins, but they are still paladins none the less)
Paladins not only seek to spread divine justice, but also to embody the teachings of the dieties they serve. Literally holy crusaders.

Divine magic from an evil god may be evil, but its still divine. Its a double edged sword. A Holy paladin of Bhaal could just as well be as righteous and virtuous as a Good paladin of Tyr.

Also, that all be said, Not everyone plays the exact same character. I will not ever be one of those murder hobos that most players call Paladins. Its absolutely an evil and unlawful act to just kill every evil thing I see for just being evil. The Church of helm may over all support the act of erradicating evil at every chance in this region specifically, but the actual teachings of Helm and many of its worshippers (By lore) Are against that notion, and so are my characters.

If we go with the logic that Paladins should just straight up remove the evil from the world, that please, by all means, let us walk through the streets of sundren, slaying all that are evil. The Nobles, the merchants, the citizens, the soldiers, all with an evil alignment. Let us murder the LE Clerics of Helm, removing their filth from this planet. Thats what paladins do right? stop evil at any chance we get? Lets be the Tyrannical force of the holy order of Paladins. Everyone with a slight hint of evil must be imprisoned or killed, if thats what a Paladin is supposed to do.

Or how about we actually be a LG person? Protect and serve, be loyal, Be kind, merciful, Show compassion and restraint where our enemies show none. Be a force of Good, a force of righteousness, Be a person that aspires to make this world a better place with our kind hearts and loving minds.

[Doubtful]

Paladins, and Lawful Good are as diverse and flexible as any other alignment or class. Just ensure you understand the basic role of the Paladin (holy fighter/communicator) and the teachings of the god your Paladin has chosen to serve.

Comedy stealth knight of Hoar, fuck yes!
Chaste poet soldier of Sune, oh my!
Flowery warrior-gardener of Chuantea, crikey!
Fantasy Medicine sans Frontier with a reluctant warrior twist of Ilmater, touch me!
Lawmongering deadeyed misanthrope of Helm, I'm moist!
Stern Tormatar with a lion fetish and daddy issues, I'm yours!

Etc, etc...

Paladins are not cookie cutters, no more than assassins, clerics or mages.

Just remember that in D&Ds universe Good and Evil are quantifiable, not abstract constructs as in our universe. Simply asking yourself 'is it Good' or 'does it fit with my characters code of conduct/honour' before acting (and yes, as a Paladin you should have worked out a code of conduct).

Murdering the fuck out of someone for pinging Evil isn't a good act, especially somewhere even vagually civilised (and no matter how bad things are you should probably consider a pubs garden to have some degree of civilisation). It's both an act of dumb-fuckery, chaoticness and debatably evil itself. Someone who trots around doing this is probably going to fall sooner or later.

Now, if that person is a well known and wanted evil doer of no good repute who is bragging about their inherent evilness then, yes, they need to be brought to justice. But, think, is justice stabbing someone in the garden? No, ideally this person needs to be beaten and taken off to somewhere full of civilisation for the proper administration of justice. Actually killing them without due cause is pretty bad, unless circumstances dictate it.

Think Corporal Carrot, not Judge Dredd (unless you're playing an ultra hard-line Paladin of Helm, and in this case those with any alignment should be as afraid of you as someone with a good alignment)

Finally, don't fear the fall. It might happen, for certain Paladin concepts it'll happen with alarming regularity, but that's why you have priest friends. While praying and devotion are an important part of every paladins life (and you can always consider the rich Paladin option of sponsoring a small church to pray regularly for your soul) there are going to be times when you spend most of your day on your knees (no Sunites, not like that) praying really extra specially hard for forgiveness or strength. Falling is a part of a paladins life, atoning is great for character development. If you're the kind of player who falls and instantly wants to become a blackguard fighter, then you probably shouldn't have been playing a Paladin in the first place. Schmuck.

Edit:
Forgot to say... Please, please, pleeeaase don't confuse the Lawful part of alignment with the following of any laws, strictures, regulations, acts or other legal things that are put in place by a local regulatory body. They are not related.

[Mournas]

This is correct. We have laws. They'd be arrested for heresy, and maybe something else fun like treason. Then end up in court. I haven't read our laws for awhile (been inactive) but I believe any Magistrate under Datton can function as a judge. We have something like 6 player Magistrates.

Heresy and Treason huh ... not exactly certain what definitions you all are using for your laws but ... I believe that's why they say "hypocrisy's a bitch." I guess that's the fun part about being evil, Laws only apply when you want them to. In fact, anyone in the Black Hand who doesn't serve Bane should be brought up on charges of Heresy according to his Dogma - that is if that's the definition of heresy you're using here.

Or perhaps a Paladin would be arrested due to the fear and impending doom they strike into the hearts of members of the Black Hand. Which, wouldn't be heresy at all under Bane's doctrine.

Either way Andelain is going to deal with members of the Black Hand as such: The Tormish stand ever alert against corruption and are expected to strike quickly and hard against any rot in the hearts of mortals. As the sword arm of justice, the Tormish are expected to bring painful, quick deaths to betrayers. That's two parts to their fourfold duties. In fact if your character is known to be in the Black Hand then be prepared to be hostiled the moment you log in on said character. Doesn't mean I'm going to chase you down and slay you flat out, just means no meta gaming will come from setting you hostile during an interaction.

[Memnoch1962]

First, not every member of the Black Hand serves Bane, some serve Colibrus and Myrkul.
As for being evil and having laws apply only if you want them to, I suppose that depends on the type of evil one is. Lawful Evil will always abide by their laws. A lawful evil Banite will not bend to the laws that your Paladin would and no one should expect them to. Lawful in alignment doesn't mean I have to obey the Laws of Sundren.

It may interest you to know that most Black Hands have no fear of anything other than Bane. So your Paladin, while probably able to kill a Banite Mage doesn't quantify to Fear in the Mage. He would feel he would be doing his duty to die in Bane's service.

As for hostiling characters simply because they log on and you know OOC that they are BH is the very definition of metagaming.

[Taintedglory]

Doubtful, I like you, you are within 90% of my lines of paladin belief

[LuxA]

Suddenly I can see a paladin application on the horizon.

[Mournas]

First, not every member of the Black Hand serves Bane, some serve Colibrus and Myrkul.
As for being evil and having laws apply only if you want them to, I suppose that depends on the type of evil one is. Lawful Evil will always abide by their laws. A lawful evil Banite will not bend to the laws that your Paladin would and no one should expect them to. Lawful in alignment doesn't mean I have to obey the Laws of Sundren.

As for hostiling characters simply because they log on and you know OOC that they are BH is the very definition of metagaming.

1. Dogma (Taken straight from Sundren's Wiki):
Serve no one but Bane. Fear him always and make others fear him even more than you do. The Black Hand always strikes down those that stand against it in the end. Defy Bane and die—or in death find loyalty to him, for he shall compel it. Submit to the word of Bane as uttered by his ranking clergy, since true power can only be gained through service to him. Spread the dark fear of Bane. It is the doom of those who do not follow him to let power slip through their hands. Those who cross the Black Hand meet their dooms earlier and more harshly than those who worship other deities.

Thus worshiping of Myrkul and Colibrites seem a bit of an issue there if you're to follow Bane's Dogma.

2. Remind me what laws Hashart Datton was following when he usurped Adeodatus reign, or is usurping not against the laws? Certainly the Black Hand took by force - from the State of Sundren - the city of Sestra. Perhaps theft is allowed by the Black Hand? Hostile take overs ... oh lets not forget about those political assassinations. So are you telling all of this is not against the law for those who live under the rule of the Black Hand?

3. Not really when I already have made up my mind that certain characters are pretty much smite first, bring to jail, ask questions later to Andelain. Plenty of players do dumb things the moment you hostile them like run or go stealth or cast spells. Andelain has no need for them to prove their evil intent as they've already proven that for him. Setting a player Hostile is a needed thing due to game mechanics just because I have to set someone hostile doesn't mean Andelain is warm and fuzzy with a Black Hand member because I haven't "clicked Hostile". Don't be silly.

[Fuzziebunny]

I think the problem of the blanket hostile is more the fear of random attacks when you are PvE or in the middle of RP. This has happened to me a few times so I get the inward cringe on that topic. There is no RP, no notice, it is suddenly you, whatever you were fighting, and now PVP. Or you are somewhere talking, then. Bam... Attack mid sentence.

[roguethree]

Thus worshiping of Myrkul and Colibrites seem a bit of an issue there if you're to follow Bane's Dogma.

The Black Hand is an organization of which Bane is a component. Obviously, Bane doesn't have a problem with his allies' worshippers being worshippers of his allies.

2. Remind me what laws Hashart Datton was following when he usurped Adeodatus reign, or is usurping not against the laws? Certainly the Black Hand took by force - from the State of Sundren - the city of Sestra. Perhaps theft is allowed by the Black Hand? Hostile take overs ... oh lets not forget about those political assassinations.

You mean when Adeodatus was inactive and the story kept rolling along, when Hashart's assumption of the mantle of Exarch was endorsed by Elric Blackhand, the leader of the Black Hand organization, who has final say over what is and is not "law" in the Banite settlement.

You're not seriously arguing about obedience to laws between two factions who are in open war with each other, are you?

3. Not really when I already have made up my mind that certain characters are pretty much smite first, bring to jail, ask questions later to Andelain. Plenty of players do dumb things the moment you hostile them like run or go stealth or cast spells.

Hostiling people on log-in creates a hostile OOC environment. No one has had more justification to auto-hostile or be auto-hostiled than I have, but that's just not how we played in that heyday; we had more desire for storyline conflict than that. Who wins the swordfight is the least important component of character v. character interaction.

[Mournas]

I think the problem of the blanket hostile is more the fear of random attacks when you are PvE or in the middle of RP. This has happened to me a few times so I get the inward cringe on that topic. There is no RP, no notice, it is suddenly you, whatever you were fighting, and now PVP. Or you are somewhere talking, then. Bam... Attack mid sentence.

I can understand this, but Sundren has rules to PvP for a reason. I'm not just going to be like - bat out of hell - smite - dash off. There will be interaction between Andelain and their character. It's also forbidden to PvP while people are engaged in PvE. I haven't ever just steam trolled over someone. I've always interacted with them prior. Even in fights that I know Andelain is going to get his teeth kicked in. I almost always give people a chance to surrender. Unless I stumble upon an already hostile situation - which is extremely rare.

[Mournas]

The Black Hand is an organization of which Bane is a component. Obviously, Bane doesn't have a problem with his allies' worshippers being worshippers of his allies.

Ah so in other words it's not heresy to not follow Bane's dogma, gotcha. (I think that's what I said in the first place).

You mean when Adeodatus was inactive and the story kept rolling along, when Hashart's assumption of the mantle of Exarch was endorsed by Elric Blackhand, the leader of the Black Hand organization, who has final say over what is and is not "law" in the Banite settlement.

Fair enough, got me there, it was certainly explained to me differently by those involved. If that's the case, sure.

You're not seriously arguing about obedience to laws between two factions who are in open war with each other, are you?

Nope, just questioning the logic behind their actions. Any attempt to explain away the unlawful actions they took against the State of Sundren (even if it's okay for them to do so because Divine Right or whatever they use to justify it) will end up being circular.

Hostiling people on log-in creates a hostile OOC environment. No one has had more justification to auto-hostile or be auto-hostiled than I have, but that's just not how we played in that heyday; we had more desire for storyline conflict than that.

Only if they take it personally. To say my desire for storyline conflict is some how less because of a preference of setting hostility is simply fallacious.

Who wins the swordfight is the least important component of character v. character interaction.

Duh

[Fateful Encounter]

Nope, just questioning the logic behind their actions. Any attempt to explain away the unlawful actions they took against the State of Sundren (even if it's okay for them to do so because Divine Right or whatever they use to justify it) will end up being circular.

It's all a matter of perspective. There is no objective determination of what's lawful and not on a universal scale. It's each character's own beliefs, allegiances, and actions that determines how lawful or chaotic they are for themselves.

So yes, from a Legion character's perspective, the Black Hand taking over Sestra was unlawful. Which is why a lawful-aligned Legion character would not be (in his mind) subject to the Black Hand's laws in Sestra. They wouldn't recognize the BH's rule as legitimate.

By the same token, the Black Hand doesn't care at all what anybody in the Legion has to say. They took over Sestra to establish their own set of laws in accordance with Bane. To them, there's absolutely nothing unlawful about it.

So yes, from an IC perspective, this would devolve into a circular argument. But from an OOC perspective, we can all recognize that both sides are still lawful.

[Sparkie]

It's all a matter of perspective. There is no objective determination of what's lawful and not on a universal scale. It's each character's own beliefs, allegiances, and actions that determines how lawful or chaotic they are for themselves....

All of what FE said, yes, exactly that. But, there's a couple things I wanted to add on. For Heresy, it's far more than do you follow Bane or not. It's a matter of have you insulted the faith as well. Walking into Sestra and saying something like "Bane, Myrkul and Colibrus are all stupid dicks" isn't something that's going to go over very well. Though, the same would be of the Triumvirate. The BH are simply far more harsh and hardcore about how they deal with people who offend in such a way.

And as for the hostling people upon log in, just don't. Even if in character, it makes sense for the characters to jump at each other screaming "Smite the Inifdel!!" All hostiling them before you run into them will do is just create a bit of OOC tension. Because like it or not, even if this is just a game, the characters rolled up here are often quite close and quite important to their players, and actions like that can in fact be taken personally. And besides, there are some known members of team evil that actually interact with people in disguise. Take Allan for example. He does his best to keep his face hidden as Lord Reyne, and barely ever talks with the mask on. As Samuel, he talks often, and has his face fully on display, a face which very few would know belongs to a vampiric assassin. In that case, if some hostiles me, there's no two ways around it- Unless I've walked up in the Lord Reyne get up, you're meta gaming, since yes, he's an evil character, but unless you scan him, which he has ways of keeping people from seeing his true nature, then you've got nothing to go on.

So, save yourself some trouble and just not hostile people until you run into them and can openly see and find ways of finding their loyalties. Which, by the way, thanks to rings of Nondetection, it's not the hardest thing to keep alignment and potential unliving status unknown. Because clicking a button at the right/wrong time can make all the difference between receiving a tell saying "Hey there, that was a fun, thanks for the rp, and the fight it turned into was awesome!" and one saying "Screw you, you meta gaming dick, go screw yourself sideways with a corkscrew!"

EDIT: Sorry for the foul language, putting in slightly more family friendly words.