RP conflict

[gamestarmike]

I remember when I made a paladin of Torm..... Thats what we need most here on sundren. Morn isn't Andy Torm?

[Memnoch1962]

I understand why some players think that attacking Black Hand characters is the thing to do. If you are in the Sundren Legion or the Triumvirite, its basically your duty.

As for the rest of the Valley, not so much. The Black Hand and the Legion/Triumvirite will always be at odds. Their respective religions pretty much dictate that. Now whether you want to have the conflict PVP or more of a battle of words is up to you.

Sundren has evolved and a lot of the lines of who is good and who is evil have blurred quite a bit since the Left Hands were bannished and the Day of Broken Blades. There are some in the Legion that follow a larger evil than they fight and don't even realize it. And not everyone in the Black Hand is out to kill the children of Sundren.

If the characters take time to RP this and not immediately start hacking at each other, its amazing at what you will discover.

As for you Paladins... The BH hates you right back. lol

[Lothoir]

Tyranus is driven by treasure, womanizing and child raising. Best RP there is!

You raise cattle and chickens; you rear children.


But onto the PvP/RP thing, the Legion and Triad will always have a mutually KoS relationship with the Black Hand, limited by the gumption/cowardice of the involved parties.

The best way I can think of to resolve that is for the City and the Black Hand to call a truce of sorts, so no one can legally attack each other, save for the MANY shades of grey that will inevitably result.

War might (will) start back up again, but a brief respite where they work together (not together) to rid the roads of bandits and orcs and work on growing power instead of spending it on pointless skirmishes would be a fun period.

[Sparkie]

Everyone's brought up good points here. Personally, I love times when two characters that absolutely HATE each other are in a circumstance where they're in the same place but can't actually touch each other. Because that allows for ideological debates and just general barb slinging, which is always more interesting than just running in without any real build up. When you've really built up that hate between characters, without the need for factions and beliefs to be the sole reason for the fight, I think it makes it sooo much better.

Now, Greymore, about that rezzing and coming back... Yes, mechanically, that's how it works, but ICly, death happens very rarely. In fact, when you PvP, unless you and the other person have agreed that the loser shall be permed, then the victor has only severely beaten the other, to where they're at death's door. This is because actual clerics who can cast Raise Dead or Resurrection are in fact a rare commodity. There was a discussion on this right here: http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24338

Not to preach, but I just find it a litte erking when people make light of death in game.... Anyways! Yes, build up to a fight as much as possible, in my opinion, is very fun.

[jarlexel]

LOL Dante

[Fuzziebunny]

The best way I can think of to resolve that is for the City and the Black Hand to call a truce of sorts, so no one can legally attack each other, save for the MANY shades of grey that will inevitably result.

War might (will) start back up again, but a brief respite where they work together (not together) to rid the roads of bandits and orcs and work on growing power instead of spending it on pointless skirmishes would be a fun period.

I read this and I thought... damn.. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[gamestarmike]

If you are someone like Lorenth, you cower in fear of everything evil and use your friends as buffers from the bad things.

[Fateful Encounter]

The best way I can think of to resolve that is for the City and the Black Hand to call a truce of sorts, so no one can legally attack each other, save for the MANY shades of grey that will inevitably result.

War might (will) start back up again, but a brief respite where they work together (not together) to rid the roads of bandits and orcs and work on growing power instead of spending it on pointless skirmishes would be a fun period.

If people really want this, faction members/leaders of the appropriate factions are welcome to pursue it in character ...

[Greymore]

Sparkie,
I am aware of what the in game Deaths door r.p. rules and theme entail. Nor do I in any way intend to make light of the concept of ic death in the game. What I was trying to convey- you sum up in in your second paragraph and first sentence. So, we are on the same page about the rules and the why of a very limited actual character death rate. (I read the thread linked above btw)


In truth pvp solves or resolves very little mechanically speaking, thematically can have consequences of course. The idea of this thread being answering the question: are there other ways to interact with your enemies rather than just constantly replaying the dance of pvp? This is what I intended to speak to as I take part in the thread.


I remember a time in the 2011-13 days when pvp was pretty constant for me, and had become a sad fact on the server. I have had my characters forced to defend themselves in pvp or flee multiple times daily, and I remember when evil p.c.'s hunted in mobs looking for victims to put under the knife. It was not uncommon for me to die, res., and die again within an hour via. pvp. when running fledgling characters- just due to your faction arms and armor, or simply because you we weak- and evil preys on the weak. It could get discouraging, as I remember. I actually recall being pvp'ed without ever sharing in game interactions with people back then.

"Example of general server tone I encountered bitd" - I also recall being chased from screen to screen and challenged to duels by a particularly high level p.c. who "dueling" was part of his characters theme. This person actual once chased my character from the Gates of the Sunderer to the Second wind Inn from one screen to the next with boots of speed or striding and springing- he would simply out run my character and reach the way point before him and hurl insults and challenges to pvp. Later, after about a year this player apologized for this behavior, and said he felt bad for the way he had treated me. I appreciated that apology and I learned a valuable lesson that day that I have never forgotten about how not to treat other players.


Ultimately and after some time; the general tone and measure of the server took it's toll on me. I found myself logging on to play less and less. Over time I, like many other players that I no longer see around- simply left to join others in play on other persistent servers. Such is life. There was a time when for all the wonder of the Sundren valley there was to explore: It just wasn't any fun for me to play here.


Now I'm a big boy, and don't mind some pvp now and again for character development or to further a story arch. I would however- hate to think that I was making anyone else miserable with my characters desire to champion his cause, "out of character" that is.

My hope is that we can have fun with our interactions on server and enjoy our selves. If I in any way ever offend any of you personally with my in character play, simply send me an "ooc" and we can end the interaction on the spot. I am not for grieving anyone. This is only a game.

So, one may ask-why did you make a strongly aligned faction p.c. when you returned to Sundren? Several reasons, not the least of which is I see that the team good or fun presence was lacking when I arrived- and thought it best to make a character to fill that void. I am not completely against playing an evil p.c. down the line either to help keep things on an even keel if need be.

Keep in mind that I like many of you have several p.c.'s a few of which are non Faction types.As far as my Paladin goes, he is not a new character but a pre Sundering p.c. from my early days of play. I am glad to be able to play him once more.

[Greymore]

Remember though Greymore, there is a fine line to walk on. You have to keep being lawful in mind as well. I had a paladin fall because he thought it was ok to kill an evil for the pure sake of them being evil, doing so he acted with chaos, killing a goodly race.

Thank you for the post and sharing your thoughts and experiences Jarlexel. I will take what you have said at face value and try and remember your experiences for future reference.


I do see why your Paladin fell and it makes sense to me from here. The law and chaos axis are as important as the Good aspect of a Paladin. I wasn't there so I wont presume to judge your play.

Notably however-I see something that might be of interest to you if a chaotic act was the reason for your characters fall rather than an evil act. (DM arbitration) That fall might not be permanent according to the D&D 3.5 PHB. See pg. 45 under "atonement". This could be a great character story line I'd say.

Happy gaming to you, and good luck.

[nezzerscape]

But onto the PvP/RP thing, the Legion and Triad will always have a mutually KoS relationship with the Black Hand, limited by the gumption/cowardice of the involved parties.

Really? I know if a Triad enters Sestra they are to be imprisoned, tortured (to death?) with a trial of course (unless already found guilty) but never KoS. All of which is primarily RP based.


If there is KoS agreement then the road would be littered with bodies and a shortage of arrows.

[ManUtd4Ever]

I would simply offer that PvP does not need to end in death. If someone is the aggressor and attacks particular characters of mine I would beat them into submission and use the event to demonstrate my character's mercy or spread fear. People rarely fear the opponent they do know know. But once beaten, it takes little to project fear.

[greypawn]

Really? I know if a Triad enters Sestra they are to be imprisoned, tortured (to death?) with a trial of course (unless already found guilty) but never KoS. All of which is primarily RP based.

If there is KoS agreement then the road would be littered with bodies and a shortage of arrows.

This is correct. We have laws. They'd be arrested for heresy, and maybe something else fun like treason. Then end up in court. I haven't read our laws for awhile (been inactive) but I believe any Magistrate under Datton can function as a judge. We have something like 6 player Magistrates.

[Jhickey]

War might (will) start back up again, but a brief respite where they work together (not together) to rid the roads of bandits and orcs and work on growing power instead of spending it on pointless skirmishes would be a fun period.

This has been attempted before, by myself, and it took all of a half day for some gung ho pally to say F$%k it and start attacking. Then I simply made all the Paladins look like chaotic fools, because that is mostly what they were at the time. Before you know it Paladins began to fall.

As a player who leads a faction, I am always looking for the RP opportunities.

[Taintedglory]

et me open this small can of worms up. Now, I'll state that Im not entirely sure where the borders of the legion faction extends, and how much their law covers the region.

Here is an example of how a Lawful person of a nations military/police force would work, I.E: Paladin of Helm.

The examples below are about two cities, in the same region but under different ruling parties.
Example 1:
Criminal commits an unlawful act in city, causes the Law to come after him, the Law is a Helmite paladin in this case. Criminal escape city, and its borders, and heads into the Unlawful wilderness.
Paladin tracks the criminal, finds him in the woods, captures him and takes him back to the city for Justice. If capture if not applicable, Paladin is the judge, jury, and executioner in the wilds. Whatever the punishment he gives to the criminal to fit the crime is well within his right to do outside the lawful boundaries of his city, but inside the city he must bring the criminal to the cities version of justice, Jail or trial or whatever is deemed right and Lawful to them.

Example 2:
City 1: Criminal commits an unlawful act in city, causes the Law to come after him, the Law is a Helmite paladin in this case. Criminal escape city, and its borders, and heads into City 2, and its borders.
Paladin tracks down the criminal, finds him in City 2. Paladin has no jurisdiction in City 2, his power is not recognized by this cities justice department (Whatever that may be).
Paladin can not act Lawfully in this situation, apprehending the criminal is against the Lawful conduct of this nation and would be considered an Unlawful act in of itself.
However, Paladin can contact the Cities authorities and request help with the situation, if any is given at all. From here the criminal has effectively escaped the Law of that Paladin and is free from here. Paladin can physically walk up the criminal in the city. If Paladin attempts to do anything, its unlawful and against their code of conduct. Paladin may not like it, but life is not fair and justice is not always served.
However, this could be the moment where the Paladin falls and sheds his code of conduct for greater justice. True, he falls and is no longer considered a Paladin, but this was the moment that all Paladins must face at one point or another, and its an example of when a Paladin puts his code to the test.


What Im getting at here is the Black hand may be wanted criminals, but within their own regions, their own borders, they cant be touched by someone that is truely supposedly Lawful. Its an unlawful act to attack someone on site in someone elses borders because of what they did in yours.

If you see a Paladin just charging into other peoples territories and attacking people who are 'Wanted criminals' From the Paladins cities, but those 'Wanted criminals' Are not recognized as wanted in the area they currently reside, then is just bad RP and Unlawful acts of Justice.




So, being long winded aside, I would love to interact with you Black hand people in the wilds and stuff, outside the reach of the law, that does not involve stabbing you immediately. I love RP, and I love interacting with other players stories. We dont have to fight just because Im playing someone holy and you're inherently evil. Cant wait to see you out there.