RP Information - Religion in the Realms

[Elusa]

Alice has mentioned several times that she prays to most gods when they show her favor, or she wishes to seek their favor. E.g. you wouldn't go to gamble without a prayer to Tymora, nor set sail without a prayer or sacrifice to Umberlee. She prays to all of the gods of all the military organizations for their continued protection. Part of the reason she converted from Lliira to Ilmater was that she felt her mind and soul were better suited to Ilmater. It didn't stop her from praying to Lliira.

You might avoid the black and white mentality partially by making the detect evil spell a little more ambiguous in its results. Also, paladins and law enforcers in particular need a primer on how to deal with these situations. The information should trickle down to the rest of the populace.

EDIT: There's a lot in this thread that should be added to the Wiki for easier access/reference in the future.

[Rekov]

I have to echo Elusa here. It seems to me that Sundren goes far, far out of its way to encourage a black and white mentality by the very existence of a detect alignment spell.

[Saulus]

^ Maybe to a casual observer but as usual -- reality is much different.

Does anyone even know we have items that can block detection? ... Not to mention organizations we have that operate in the gray area... but feel free to blanket everything with that statement.

[Rekov]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no way for someone to get a false positive on an evil reading, is there?

Of course there are non-detection items and a non-detection spell, and of course characters are motivated by a whole lot more than evil for evil's sake. The best villains often think they're acting for some greater purpose or some greater good, and are just doing what they find to be necessary.

But that doesn't change the fact that good and evil are defined, unyielding metaphysical concepts in forgotten realms. If someone is evil, they're EVIL. I hate it. I think it's the stupidest system imaginable. Is Sundren going with something different then? I sure wouldn't mind. But if it isn't, we have to acknowledge the fact that people are very much Good, Neutral, or Evil, and while the world isn't black and white, it very much is black, grey and white, with each being a defined, solid shade.

I am rather new here, so it would help me greatly if someone described what the results of detect alignment are supposed to mean in character. If a paladin reads someone as evil, is that a license to kill?

[Jhickey]

I am with Saulus on this one. Do a few people take it to the extreme, of course. Most often though it is run in a more gray zone. If you are open about where your PC can go and not be so ridged "The only way to play a Tormite is to kill all suspected evil, and reject all other doctrines." The definition of good and evil can be debated for centuries (and frankly has), but that does not mean that people are the very definition of such. Yes is a fantasy world, we have Paladins and Anti Paladins (We really need a base class here in Sundren), but that does not mean that the good or evil in someone would not try and convert the other instead of out right attacking.

Even though I play a religious fanatic; and run a group that is based on a religious doctrine. I personally play it in the more neutral zone. If anyone Has meet Datton, he would most often converse with people and try to convince them of the error of their ways. He is also incredibly lawful, and will on more than one occasion show that he is above all else more lawful than the next guy.

The point is that everyone's toon has more than one side, and until you really RP and talk with the other side you do not know. So stop taking the word of people standing around the second wind inn and go see for yourself. I hate walking around and being attacked on site because someone has heard a rumor. Try to converse, and understand that any one PC has more dimensions, and more often than not falls into a variety of opinions on differing matters.

But all in all GBX good read, and thanks for the post.

[Lothoir]

If a paladin reads someone as evil, is that a license to kill?

Depending on deity, possibly. But that's not the sort of thing that will hold up in a court, assuming your paladin even gets a trial before being hung for murder.

[Doubtful]

The detect alignment abilities are a staple of D&D, not just something we've thrown in for a giggle.

While their is black and white in the world in the world the vast majority of the population exists within the varied shades between.

Anyway, gods and worship. As has already been said Pagan Rome and Greece can provide a great insight into the workings of a polytheistic society, the point raised about Christian saints as another source is also very valid, looking back at things such as Julius Work Calendar shows the diversity and variety of saints.

The deities all have their place, read through large amounts of most of the evil deities lore and you'll find that most of them have a positive role to some degree, for most people who aren't paladins the gods of all alignments have a part to play in their and their loved ones lives (after all you don't just pray for yourself). Prayers and offerings of appeasement to gods who might blight your life are just as important as those that praise the gods they want to encourage.

One thing I've seen on a couple of occasions now and I think is worth fostering is an aversion to naming gods, particularly those gods who might be fickle or prone to comedy. Names have a lot of power in the realms and frequently naming them may get their attention. Stand around the campfire naming Talona a lot for example could have consequences which may not be enjoyable. I know the DMs can't always be around to smite you with lightning after you name Talos for the nth time during a thunderstorm, but please try to keep things like that in mind!

Another important one worth mentioning is Myrkul, now, yes he is an evil god so boo hiss, but he's also got a fairly hardcore rep and is the god of death. Pretty much no matter what your characters alignment is they will have a brush with myrkul, his clergy may be feared but by jiminy they're also respected.

[Valhalla]

Does anyone even know we have items that can block detection?

It would be nice if items like Rings of Nondetection were available to people without a faction, or in goodly/neutral factions. While potions of nondetection are so cheap as to be free, it's a little awkward when you're mid-dungeon run or god forbid, mid RP when everyone around you sees that little "I'm evil" icon over your head from nondetection fading and the awkward moment after when you have to make up some excuse to slam a potion.

[Saulus]

^ Why, it's paladins that are the ones that are aggressively running down 'evil' people. Why do good people need to hide they are good?

Also it should be quite obvious that people without factions are at a disadvantage.

[Valhalla]

I meant if you wanted to play an evil character in a neutral faction like Blackwood. As far as I know (though there's a few factions whose gear I haven't seen), the only nondetection on an item is the Black Hand ring, which helps keep Black Handers who want to move in the regular crowds safe.

My point is that it would be nice if evil people in neutral factions could also find a way of shielding themselves without relying on potions that inevitably cause metagaming issues.

Edit: I'm not stressing over it, though. I don't actually main an evil character anymore so it's not a personal problem, just something I noticed.

[Kitsunestume]

One thing I've seen on a couple of occasions now and I think is worth fostering is an aversion to naming gods, particularly those gods who might be fickle or prone to comedy. Names have a lot of power in the realms and frequently naming them may get their attention. Stand around the campfire naming Talona a lot for example could have consequences which may not be enjoyable. I know the DMs can't always be around to smite you with lightning after you name Talos for the nth time during a thunderstorm, but please try to keep things like that in mind!

I'm with Doubt here.
There is a reason all them deities have aliases, most of them somewhere between one and four listed on the Wiki pages. You can talk about a god and have everyone know exactly what you mean without every saying a name. For example, my Sharran cleric doesn't referred to his deity by name in anything other than the most reverent prayers, instead using the term Mistress of Night, Lady Loss, or derivatives. Every other god out there has similar names and titles, as far as I'm aware. They add flavor, and mean you don't need to blurt out in everyone's face that you follow the most evilest deity in the multiverse.

^ Why, it's paladins that are the ones that are aggressively running down 'evil' people. Why do good people need to hide they are good?

Don't need to hide their alignment, perhaps, but sometimes you just don't want people divining your location, regardless of morality.
It still works as a counter to Locate Person. . . . Right?

[Kitsunestume]

Posting delay causes doublepost. oops.

[Rekov]

The metagaming issue is really the thing that bugs me about this whole system. It's pretty inconceivable that anyone could get to a level sufficient to cast the spell, or know the server well enough to get an item or potions without being detected a few times. Especially for someone who doesn't intricately know Sundren's items and such.

Perhaps that's worrying too much, though. :P It just seems like the system is incredibly slanted towards being detected, as being revealed for only a few seconds is enough to be tarred for life, so to speak.

[Jai_V]

Besides, who's to say you kept in in the potion vial you bought it in? It's plausible (RP-wise) that you have a whiskey flask or a wine skin or some other drinking apparatus to obscure the fact that you're shooting a non-detection potion.

Also, I realize there's this big concern about meta-gaming, but I found that most of the people on this server are responsible and reasonable. But everyone makes mistakes. So in the event someone gets caught up in the moment, sees your non-detection wear off, and immediately spams Detect Evil, PM them about it. Most likely, it won't be a problem.

[Kitsunestume]

The metagaming issue is really the thing that bugs me about this whole system. It's pretty inconceivable that anyone could get to a level sufficient to cast the spell, or know the server well enough to get an item or potions without being detected a few times. Especially for someone who doesn't intricately know Sundren's items and such.

Nondetection is a 3rd level arcane spell, making it rather trivial to obtain: Wizards can get it at level 5, Sorcs 6. It's also supposed to be Trickery-3, but it isn't in the spell-list. It lasts for an hour a level, meaning that the minimum is half an hour: I think the potions last ten minutes or so. At higher levels, Extended Nondetection is almost standard, from what I can tell, allowing you to easily run for up to two hours (one rest period) on a fourth-level spell-slot before needing to renew.

As for the other half: It brings to mind that proverb about assassins.
You need to be successful every time, they only need to be successful once.