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RP Information - Religion in the Realms

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Atmosphere View Post
    That actually makes me have a godbeast question. How does soul of a demon/devil cultist work once they die. I assume the demon or devil claims it?
    Excellent question!

    I will give you the chain of events as it proceeds.

    All devils are bound by the first agreement that Asmodeus made with the gods of law & Order, the Pact Primeval. This gives him the legal right to do soul business, make pacts, garner power from souls, and to run the hells with devils and such. It is actually unlawful for gods to break this agreement.

    The process for the agreements are as follows.

    Find a devil

    This is actually pretty easy. Harvester Devils are the most common devils to make agreements with. They often appear as mortals or something very close looking to one. They will hang out in taverns, crossroads at midnight, etc. They might even find you. Other devils who traffic in souls and corruption tend to be Erinyes and Brachina (Promoted Erinyes), but Brachina are particularly adept in corruption clerics/paladins, etc, so they go for those.

    The Faustian Pact

    First, the agreement is negotiated. What the mortal wants, what they get, etc. This is drawn up quite literally a scroll or contract that is made to denote the agreed upon terms. The signature is always in blood of the mortal to be binding.

    The pacts are as follows:

    Pact Certain - Mortal basically pledges themselves to a lord of hell and to corrupt themselves. Once signed the individual IMMEDIATELY switches to Lawful/Evil, no matter what alignment they were before. Often once it's signed, the devil will try to setup the mortal's death as quickly as possible because usually them continuing to live means cost and devils try to minimalize cost for getting a soul. This is the favored pact among devils since it damns people right to hell. A lot of mortals will sign this pact to send themselves to hell in order to free someone else's soul.

    Pact Insidious - This is an agreement where the mortal does services for the devil and the devil will reward them. The devil usually carefully sneaks in extra services that must be preformed after the first for each step in the reward, and the final result of these actions will often lead to one damning themselves to the hells anyway. Often these pacts have a nondisclosure agreement so that the mortal cannot speak of it with others.

    The Mark

    Once the pact is signed a soul is marked by the Arch Duke the devil was trading under. This is important later on. Any devil is able to see this mark on a soul.

    Death

    Once the pact is signed and the mortal is setup to go to hell they are dropped off on the steps as a soul husk on the river Styx and devils man ferries to collect these souls from the steppes and float along the river Styx. The IMPORTANT part of this is for the souls NOT to touch the river Styx. If one comes in contact with the river, their memories are erased and they are basically an empty soul which is worthless.

    After going down this river into Avernus, there are cages where the souls are dumped and one by one they are tortured into a writhing pulp of flesh. This tears the memories and identity from the person (Their divine power) which goes to the Devil who was marked on the soul, and empowers them.

    After being tortured, the husk is generally dumped into the maggot pit which is a yucky pool of goop and husks of once souls that have no idea who they are or what they are and are generally in agony (NOTE: Tiamat's lair is right at this big pit).

    Aftermath

    Here's where it gets interesting. When new devils are needed, they come from two sources, one is Larvae which are what the souls who go to Bane, Beshaba, Talona or Loviatar often become. Literally heads on grub-like bodies (Hence the name). The other place is from the Maggot pit itself. This doesn't happen often enough for either of these beings to be happy and it's like a lottery. As the book puts it, these souls do their best to stand out from a pit of garbage so they'll be selected when they are garbage themselves... good luck.

    After that the souls is often promoted to a Lemure and then they go about doing what Lemure's do in hell with no conscious idea who they used to be in general.

    Some people can specifically bargain to bypass the maggot pits, but everyone gets tortured.

    Fugue Planes

    Souls in the Fugue plane can bargain with devils there. People who bargain with devils are often people afraid their gods are going to punish them when they get to them or that are afraid to go to their evil god like Bane. The Devil has to tell the soul they are dead and that their god will pick them up eventually when they are on the fugue, which was the agreement with kelemvor. They can't lie about those things, and they have to give what they promise.

    Rewards

    Often times people will get these rewards, some OOC (With IC results) and some IC period.

    - Gold for themselves of their families/friends, etc.
    - Experience points
    - A feat or two
    - A spell slot or two
    - Bonus Skill Points
    - Save someone else from Hell
    - Promotion into Lemure or sometimes an even stronger Devil after torture
    - Other crap DMs come up with

    Devil Cheated Me!

    Now, sometimes these devils don't uphold their bargains or trick people into coming to hells unlawfully. There are only two ways a devil can do this. One is not upholding the agreed upon terms of the contract on their end, and two is using force to get the signature which includes third parties. They cannot say "Sign this or I kill your wife."

    When this happens you can go to the Diabolic Court where a pit fiend oversees the case and makes a ruling. To ask for this a soul must know they can! This requires Knowledge Religion or Knowledge Planes ranks so most souls don't know they can do this if they were cheated.

    You can call witnesses to the court and an arbiter, but the devils DO NOT have to give the person a ride to the court, but they must inform them. Then arbitration begins where you argue your case which is generally more knowledge rolls unless you want to RP it out.


    Devils are Slick

    Don't underestimate devils. They can cheat and convince people to sign in ways you can't imagine. Here's an example: Often times devils will do something like beat/threaten/scare a loved one into signing and then taking them to hell. This is an illegal contract, but they still have a chance of keeping the soul.

    What they will do next is go to a loved one and have them sign to save the first from hell. Which will be a legal contract, so they have a chance of getting two souls.

    Other ways they work is getting people to do the jobs of gathering wealth for them, with a chance of getting that person's soul from their deeds, and then use that gathered wealth to get someone else to sign over their soul for it. Kill them, then keep the wealth left behind!

    They have all kinds of sick and tricky ways to get souls.


    And that is what devils do to people.

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    • #17
      I did devils so I might as well do Demons.

      Demons have it much easier than Devils. Demons literally just steal souls and drag them to the abyss or they wind up in the Abyss through various means. Some demons will tear them from the wall in the Fugue, steal them from the Fugue residents waiting to go to their gods, steal them from the material, or even raid the rafts of devils on the River Styx.

      Every soul that goes to the Abyss in this manner becomes a Mane. These are 3 foot tall monster that is pretty much garbage. They are used as slaves, currency to empower spells, and sometimes just hunted for fun. Othertimes they just wander around doing dumb Mane things. RARELY a mane retains shattered memories of it's mortal life, and these Manes are the ones most likely to become stronger demons later.

      Mane



      In the hells higher devils and arch dukes promote devils to new forms of power. In the Abyss, the Abyss itself (Which is kinda sentient in alot of ways) will randomly decide it thinks a certain main should be promoted or sometimes stronger demons will engineer another demon's promotion if it happened to like it for some reason. It's a very chaotic and seemingly random process of selecting one. A mane can even be promoted right up to Balor or Molydeus if it's EXTREMELY lucky.

      Manes pretty much are all over the Abyss so they are tripped over like vermin.


      Now, I forgot where I read it, but I'm going to say this because it matters. Tieflings are outsiders already and actually arrive in the lower planes as they were before death. Often times tieflings are HIGHLY sought out by fiends, becoming servants, minions, soldiers, or even sometimes are just collected for harems for powerful fiends. So tieflings in a way have it hard or have it easy depending on how you look at it.

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      • #18
        Concerning Devil's and how they aquire souls: While they do steal souls from the wall, they still cannot take them from unwilling mortals in the prime material plane. The Book of Fiends, Volume 2 says this about demons and their aquisition of mortal souls:

        Soul sponsoring involves making pacts with mortals. In return for some service, the demon prince lays claim to a mortal's soul upon that being's death. Rather than the complicated contracts prepared by their diabolical kin, demons favor a simple approach. When a mortal calls out for a demon's aid, wether through thaumaturgical rituals (the usual method) or simple entreaty (a far les certain prospect), the prince gazes into the supplicant's heart. If the offer is in earnest, the bargain is accepted on the spot. If not, the demon ignores it, or sometimes punishes the mortal for wasting its time.
        Also something else of interest from the Planescape monsterous compendium. One of the reasons the Erinyes are so good at harvesting souls is because they can do something no other evil can do, not even Pit Fiends; they can enter the Prime Material unsummoned. They cannot bring anyone or anything with them when they pass into the Prime, and they can only bring one person back when they return (without any inorganic material, so no possessions).

        This unique power affords them very unusual oppertunties to collect a lot of souls, and because of this, they report to the dark eight directly outside of the normal chain of command. For this reason, most Erinyes refuse promotion from their current station to avoid loosing this special status for more "physical" power. Also, there are never more than 500 Erinyes at any given time.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Laurk View Post
          Concerning Devil's and how they aquire souls: While they do steal souls from the wall, they still cannot take them from unwilling mortals in the prime material plane. The Book of Fiends, Volume 2 says this about demons and their aquisition of mortal souls:



          Also something else of interest from the Planescape monsterous compendium. One of the reasons the Erinyes are so good at harvesting souls is because they can do something no other evil can do, not even Pit Fiends; they can enter the Prime Material unsummoned. They cannot bring anyone or anything with them when they pass into the Prime, and they can only bring one person back when they return (without any inorganic material, so no possessions).

          This unique power affords them very unusual oppertunties to collect a lot of souls, and because of this, they report to the dark eight directly outside of the normal chain of command. For this reason, most Erinyes refuse promotion from their current station to avoid loosing this special status for more "physical" power. Also, there are never more than 500 Erinyes at any given time.
          Possessor demons override what you wrote. They can literally enter someone's body and turn them into demons on the material. They do this to get a foot hold on the material realm specifically. Among other things...

          And as for Erinyes in Planescape, Planescape has a lot of it's own conventions which I'm not too interested in. Tyrants of the Nine Hells outlines various reasons why Erinyes won't promote to anything but Brachina. Ability to mate with themselves to have Erinyes offspring is chief among them while every other devil has to come from Manes. This means that Erinyes can just pop them kids out to make more than 500.

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          • #20
            I'd like to point out that the River Styx is the same river as the River of Blood, which is what I was calling it when speaking as a NPC to the red wizard group a few weeks ago.
            "You're only given one little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it." - Robin Williams

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            • #21
              I had a question on religious dogma, specifically Sune.

              Now according to dogma, pretty is good. However, there are obviously evil peeps that are pretty. As Sune does not hold with evil, I have had my heartwarder killing Succubus as well as opposing obviously evil people, despite their looks. To me, it only makes sense but I have been questioned on this behavior ICly. So I thought I would ask. Is this to far a deviation from dogma or does it seem reasonable?
              GMT -9

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Fuzziebunny View Post
                I had a question on religious dogma, specifically Sune.

                Now according to dogma, pretty is good. However, there are obviously evil peeps that are pretty. As Sune does not hold with evil, I have had my heartwarder killing Succubus as well as opposing obviously evil people, despite their looks. To me, it only makes sense but I have been questioned on this behavior ICly. So I thought I would ask. Is this to far a deviation from dogma or does it seem reasonable?
                The first line in the dogma section of our wiki on Sune is 'Beauty is more than skin deep.'
                http://www.sundren.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sune
                "You're only given one little spark of madness. You mustn't lose it." - Robin Williams

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Fuzziebunny View Post
                  I had a question on religious dogma, specifically Sune.

                  Now according to dogma, pretty is good. However, there are obviously evil peeps that are pretty. As Sune does not hold with evil, I have had had my heartwarder killing Succubus as well as opposing obviously evil, people despite their looks. To me, it only makes sense but I have been questioned on ICly. So I thought I would ask. Is this to far a deviation from dogma or does it seem reasonable?
                  Firstly, I don't tend to like to tell people how they should behave when it comes to gods, especially considering everybody interprets dogma and church their own way, especially in chaotic churches.

                  Sune is a Chaotic God, and noted specifically for being vain and fickle at times. She's sometimes abhored by the other good gods (Not to be confused with their followers) for that very reason.

                  So it's quite likely she will hold someone who is beautiful in higher endearment and someone who is hideous in lesser endearment.

                  Now, reading her dogma it says "Beauty is more than skin deep." Does this mean one should look for inner beauty in a person? Does this mean someone who is beautiful cannot be truly evil? Does this mean evil in someone will eventually show itself on their appearance? There's many ways to take something like that.

                  You have to also consider that Sune is the embodiment of Love and Passion. She's not likely to feel things like Hatred for much, that's Bane's department and opposite of Love. Ironically, she doesn't even have revulsion for Bane. Her list of gods she doesn't like doesn't include gods for being "Evil". She picks gods she doesn't like because they break/ruin beautiful things. Tempus, for example, with his war, and he's not Evil. She may even feel that evil can be redeemed with love.

                  This is why they present belief as dogma, so that it's open to interpretation by the beholder, and you'll find that chaotic gods often have VERY subjective dogmas. Keep in mind some priests of Sune will be C/N and may do unkind behaviors at times. I'm certain Sune isn't the happiest about this because she admonishes friendships and love.

                  Really, Chaotic gods are harder to upset than Lawful ones.

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                  • #24
                    Sundren does have a lot of extremists. I have to point out that sundrens boogie men are the Blackhand an extremest faction of bane. The flip side this Brought in the Traid and extrem faction of group of faiths to fight them. With these as your boogie men, it breeds extremism in the good and evil on Sundren, in my humble opinion. Because as stated earlyer these are the paladins and blackguards of the faiths, ready to war over it. Most the time they bring sundrens common man into there wars.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Talleyman99 View Post
                      Sundren does have a lot of extremists. I have to point out that sundrens boogie men are the Blackhand an extremest faction of bane. The flip side this Brought in the Traid and extrem faction of group of faiths to fight them. With these as your boogie men, it breeds extremism in the good and evil on Sundren, in my humble opinion. Because as stated earlyer these are the paladins and blackguards of the faiths, ready to war over it. Most the time they bring sundrens common man into there wars.
                      It's true that extremist groups do breed extremism in their enemies as well, and for that reason common extremism isn't wrong, but it needs to be acknowledged that this is a unique situation by characters who would know such, such as those that are foreign or have high Knowledge: Religion.

                      Also: this is fantastic information presented in a very readable format, so thanks, GBX. It'll be interesting to see if we notice any subtle changes in our RP because of this.

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                      • #26
                        Okay i have a question too, what about deities like the elemental lords like Akadi, Grumbar, Ishtisha, and Kossuth? All of them are just nuetral deities and it seems like they dont care much about what their followers do. But they all have their limits on what is acceptable behavior and what is not. But what would someone have to do to loose divine power from any of the elemental lords?

                        And i know it is a very broad question because it is four deities but compared to the rest of the FR pantheon the elemental lords are very different than the rest.

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                        • #27
                          I second GholaMan's question.

                          I heard a dirty rumor that the raw elemental gods are no longer gods (in 4th ed?), but primordials. If so, how do the primordial powers fit into all this?

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                          • #28
                            They were never true deities, as far as I recall.
                            However, I will leave the discussion of such facts to people who aren't currently writing lectures on the nature of magic.

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                            • #29
                              Aah, go away 4th ed. Go away.

                              I guess a good course of action would be to investigate the dietys enemies of ones character and then think long and hard about how/if these are filtered down into the follower.

                              Id like to retract everything My'athvin has ever said of the fury gods. I suddenly feel more at home in the nature character circles. Except for malarites
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                              • #30
                                This is a great post, and definitely something that we need reminding of on occasion thanks!

                                For example, whilst my patron diety is Rillifane it's impossible to believe that almost every Elf in existence hasn't prayed to or made offerings to their creator Corellon Larethian at some time in their lives. And they probably honor Sehahine at funerals/before a journey, Hanali at weddings, Aerdrie when they want a baby etc etc
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