What can be done to save Sundren?

[Dave Fritz]

I'm more than a little dishartened by the state of the server at the moment. The departure of GD as a DM is a big blow.

While there was a brief resurgence at the time of the Second Sundering, server population has been dwindling for a long time and really shows no sign of picking up.

In fact, during Eurozone playtimes, the server is effectively dead. In the last few months I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've logged on and not been the only person in-game. It's hard to RP when there's no one to RP with.

I've made a suggestion (http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20575 ) for trying to revive things a bit, but nothing has happened. A good number of my other suggestions have also been ignored/forgotten/dismissed by the administration.

I'm at the end of my rope with ideas. Does anyone else have something to suggest? Does anyone really care about Sundren any more?

[Fezzik]

Most of the time when I log in, even if I just sit in the AFK and do other things, there is hardly anyone about even during EST prime time.

Lots of Forum RP?

[Silas North]

This is going to sound a tad harsh, but I'll give my honest opinion.

Two words: story reset.

I know of at least half a dozen people and two DMs that would consider returning if this current main plot is just tossed and a new one takes its place.

Another option is just to wait it out til summer comes in full tilt. Things might turn around. Sometimes it's always darkest before the dawn.

[thaelis]

This is going to sound a tad harsh, but I'll give my honest opinion.

Two words: story reset.
.

How would that help? The old storyline was more fun?

By the current plot you mean war between Banites and Sundren gov't?

And the old plot would be...war with the Bloodmaim? (I haven't been around that long so I'm not even sure what the 'old' plot would be from the opinion of a veteran like u ><)

Or are you referring to the dissolution of a lot of the Factions? In which case I agree that that sucked. Personally, I took the destruction of the Grove as a big hit, as it was the only place for those who love playing Druids/Rangers/Elves to gather and feel at home.

[ManUtd4Ever]

#1. Revert back to the previous XP values: IMO the population was beginning to increase when the XP values were higher, thus allowing an individual to level faster. I cannot prove the causation, but it seemed to me there was a lot of experimentation with new builds during this time period. This is important when the server population is low as it allows you to try out builds that strike your fancy. So what if you dumped the character at 10th level, at least you were on the server and prepared to switch to a character more compatible when others logged on.

#2. If you can't keep up, don't step up: The current Sundren story line (right, wrong or indifferent) promoted certain characters to near legendary status. They became integral characters in the plot line, only to fade away. We all understand that RL takes precedence. If you need a break… take one, but give everyone a shout out so they know you will not be on line. If you accept a position of responsibility, either in RP or a member of the Staff, then you have stepped up to make this server better. If you can’t get on line then let everyone know so we can all move on. I suspect there are a handful of dedicated players who would love to take on a more demanding role in the plot line(s). Solicit applications for new integral characters to the plot line.

#3. Focus on keeping the player base you have: NWN2 Platinum Edition is $148.99 (new) and NWN2 Gold Edition is $159.99 (new) + SoZ at $39.97 (new). These prices will make attracting “new” players to the NWN2 franchise more difficult, which also impacts the number of “new” players looking for a PW. As such, it is unlikely that Sundren will see an influx of truly new players anytime soon. I would recommend focusing on the player base that is already here (See #2). There are enough PW players out there to more than fill any server. Keep your current player base interested and the others will take notice too.

#4. Fix the factions: As it stands, the best equipment in game resides within the active factions. It will take ~10,000 reputation points to have access to this equipment. Poltergeist led a series of faction discussions that appeared to be very constructive. I know there were a series of good recommendations that came out of these discussions. I would encourage to the staff to implement them.

#5. Less is more: Plan and execute at least one major RP event each month. Instead of a handful of really small events, pick a time zone and then rotate a major time zone(s) to the right for each event. Tie each event to a Sundren plot line, because if the story stagnates then so too will the player’s interest.

#6. Epic levels are the key: Open the Abyss. Make it more accessible to the average 20th level player. I can’t remember the last time the Abyss was open, but I seem to remember there was but a small core group of players that have experienced this area… more than once.

[bipolar bear]

now I know my play times are unrelieable at best. but I have mentioned before that I think scripted re-do-able quest may help. quest that might gain access to different midlevel items or rare crafting materials. with a bit of xp and or rep for the intire group. it would give people things to do instead of farm an area for a couple of hours a day when there isn't a dm on.

just a thought.

[FoogooFish]

I will try my best to keep my tone constructive, but I make no guarantees.

The events that prompted the current storyline culminated the weekend of August 24-26, 2012. As I write this post, it is nine months to the day that the city soared into the sky. As soon as the dust settled, my PC - one of those promoted to 'near legendary status' - set to work. She made goals. She tried to accomplish this and do that. She gave orders. She gave direction.

Time passed, and nothing happened. The plot faltered.

Obviously, I wasn't working hard enough. So Emiliana made more goals, made more plans, and tried to get folks involved. I thought that if I built up the Legion, then perhaps the elaborate post I wrote in Character Requests called "Tenth Legion Goals and Pursuits" might get some results, because there would be more folks than just Emiliana involved. I scheduled events that I ran, the Tenth Legion Training events, and for a while we had a good turn-out and players seemed to have fun.

Still, time passed, and nothing happened. No goals were accomplished, and Emiliana could only invent so many ways to say "we have not found a way to..." or "we are still waiting to hear about..." to the people looking to her for answers. One-off events happened with no real follow up, and they only served to add more frustration to an already frustrating situation. As Emiliana, my hands were tied: the things I needed to do IC were things that required DMs. Her task, after the city went skyward and the ground was lost, was to reclaim the ground - and despite her power, she couldn't just go out and do so. Roguethree and I used to joke about how Dain and Emiliana could have waltzed into Sestra and reclaimed the place without breaking a sweat, but 1) it wouldn't have counted, and 2) it would have been an unsatisfying story - and story was what we craved.

I continued my efforts until near the end of February 2013. A full six months had passed since the Second Sundering, and I can think of no major advancement to the plot - at least from the Legion end. I am not infallible, and it's past six in the morning as I write this, so I fully admit I may have overlooked something. The end result is that I finally got tired of trying. I did everything I knew to do: I kept an organized Character Request thread with frequent updates so the Staff would know exactly what I was trying to do and how I wanted to do it; I held frequent IC events to get other players involved; I communicated with various DMs to remind them that I would like to do this, that, or the other. What else could I have done? If someone has a feasible answer, I would love to hear it.

Sundren stopped being fun for me when I realized that for all the power given to my PC, she was still powerless to change the world. Fault me for that if you wish it, but I do not enjoy stagnation when I feel I tried to move towards progress instead of waiting for events to be thrown at me. I am human, and I want to have fun when I game the same as anyone else.

All that aside... the OP asked a valid question: what can be done to save Sundren?

To me, the current storyline has to be advanced, or everything needs to be reset. Limbo is a place no one wants to stay - myself included.

~Foo

[Doubtful]

Ideas

• More staff - The team as it stands is a very lean one, heavily impacted by the sad departure of Grinning Death. No/low staff means no/low players. We need DMs, Mappers and Scripters. Applications?
  
  
• Hot forum action - may also help out game action by inspiring those here to fire up the game. This could be IC antics or OOC information, it all helps. Status/development updates from the teams would also be awesome, even if it's just a 'Still active!' note.
  
  
• Dynamic World - Related to the above, seeing the world change in reaction to your antics as a player is immensely rewarding and fosters a real sense of commitment. The opposite is also true, seeing a world remain static and unyielding no matter what you do is disheartening and frustrating. Obviously for this to develop we'd need more mappers.
  
  
• Appearance matters - More heads and custom packs, especially for the existing ugly races.
  
  
• Class matters - Keadrins class packs really are fun, even if we blocked some of the more OP ones they could provide a lot of entertainment and choice.

Discussions

I've made a suggestion (http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20575 ) for trying to revive things a bit, but nothing has happened.

It's a good suggestion, I'll mentally throw things at Saulus (AFAIK he's the only one with the power to do such things, maybe GBX does as well) until he relents. Until then I've made a sticky thread in General Discussion for people to pimp out play times: www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?p=145632

Does anyone really care about Sundren any more?

YES!

Two words: story reset.

I know of at least half a dozen people and two DMs that would consider returning if this current main plot is just tossed and a new one takes its place.

From previous discussions I assume you mean reset the server back to before the Necropolis change over, the rise of Myrkul and the death/disappearance of Kelemvor. As these events started some 4 years ago I feel it might be rather overdoing it to retcon so far into the past. After all, undoing all the work and time put in by players and staff since on the off chance that six players might thing about coming back is somewhat excessive.

I'd much rather look at ways of moving the story and the world forward rather than focusing on the past or moving backwards (exception: see Overly Dramatic Ideas below).

Or are you referring to the dissolution of a lot of the Factions? In which case I agree that that sucked. Personally, I took the destruction of the Grove as a big hit, as it was the only place for those who love playing Druids/Rangers/Elves to gather and feel at home.

I understand that a lot of people were upset at the loss of the Grove and the reasons behind it (server lore and so forth) didn't comfort some people - However, in the update that's being worked on (The Spine) there is room for players to develop a new and much more server appropriate nature orientated area. As for an elven faction, there was some discussion amongst the staff about such things but I've not seen Polt in some weeks. We can open separate threads to discuss such things if you'd like.

#1. Revert back to the previous XP values:

Have the XP values really changed that much recently? Where have things changed and in what context? Do mobs give lower XP overall or is it more specific situations that seem to be affected?

#2. If you can't keep up, don't step up: The current Sundren story line promoted certain characters to ... integral characters in the plot line, only to fade away. Solicit applications for new integral characters to the plot line.

This has come up in various faction and staff discussions. Applications for characters to directly step in and replace existing characters is unlikely to happen, characters ideally need to develop into roles and power rather than be taken from nothing and slotted into position. People need to be given a chance to take a break or for things to calm down, we don't particuarly want a 5 second rule for positions nor do we want to dimish the hard work and dedication that it takes from players to reach such positions. That said we do have contigencies for when it becomes clear that it's time to move on, and we do so in a way that respects the past and allows future development.

#3. NWN2 Platinum Edition is $148.99 (new) and NWN2 Gold Edition is $159.99 (new) + SoZ at $39.97 (new).

Ouch, pricey.

#4. Fix the factions: As it stands, the best equipment in game resides within the active factions. It will take ~10,000 reputation points to have access to this equipment. Poltergeist led a series of faction discussions that appeared to be very constructive. I know there were a series of good recommendations that came out of these discussions. I would encourage to the staff to implement them.

DEV time is currently one of our biggest problems, there are lots of things that we'd love to implement from many discussions, but the man hours required present a problem!

#5. Less is more: Plan and execute at least one major RP event each month. Tie each event to a Sundren plot line, because if the story stagnates then so too will the player’s interest.

A good idea, I'll certainly look at trying to set a specific single time for a major event amongst my general 'Contactable for Events' status.

#6. Epic levels are the key: Open the Abyss. Make it more accessible to the average 20th level player. I can’t remember the last time the Abyss was open, but I seem to remember there was but a small core group of players that have experienced this area… more than once.

I'm unsure what happened with the development of the Abyss areas, it would be nice to see something done with them. However, I'm not sure that trips to the Abyss should ever become common place - Perhaps reidentifying the area would help.

scripted re-do-able quest may help. quest that might gain access to different midlevel items or rare crafting materials. with a bit of xp and or rep for the intire group.

Scripted quests would be awesome, I know Saulus would love to stick more quests onto the server! The trouble right now is DEV/Staff time.

BUT! Here's everyone's chance - If you've got a great idea for a quest; write it. Put something together that we can work with and we'll try and work with you to get it in game.

[Dave Fritz]

Pimping my playtimes as per http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20602

Thanks for the thread, Doubt.

[thaelis]

Ideas[LIST]

Have the XP values really changed that much recently? Where have things changed and in what context? Do mobs give lower XP overall or is it more specific situations that seem to be affected?

I *think* he is referring to the time just after the encounter updates, when the per-kill XP caps were removed and a party of 6 could get 500xp per each green/blue monster. Then recently the 150xp cap has been re-implemented.

Still, even with the caps put back in, leveling is twice as easy as it used to be back in oldschool Sundren.

[Doubtful]

I will try my best to keep my tone constructive, but I make no guarantees.

The events that prompted the current storyline culminated the weekend of August 24-26, 2012. As I write this post, it is nine months to the day that the city soared into the sky. As soon as the dust settled, my PC - one of those promoted to 'near legendary status' - set to work. She made goals. She tried to accomplish this and do that. She gave orders. She gave direction.

Time passed, and nothing happened. The plot faltered.

...

Sundren stopped being fun for me when I realized that for all the power given to my PC, she was still powerless to change the world. Fault me for that if you wish it, but I do not enjoy stagnation when I feel I tried to move towards progress instead of waiting for events to be thrown at me. I am human, and I want to have fun when I game the same as anyone else.

Agreed, I know I've appogised in the past for my part in the stagnation, I burnt out hard just after the flying city and left a lot of people hanging.

Since then though the staff has developed some useful tools, major props to Phantom Lamb for the asset control system that we now have - That system combined with more quests could give Sundrens factions a level of non DM reliant player control that would be unrivaled in existing servers. What we need is the DEV staff and time to be able to tie it in fully with the world, and the DEV time to reflect the actions of players on the world itself!

Giving high level faction PCs the ability to deploy those under their control, manage (not micro manage though, that might be dull) their territories and actually get more out of it that red/purple items must become a fundamental aspect of running a faction.

All that aside... the OP asked a valid question: what can be done to save Sundren?

To me, the current storyline has to be advanced, or everything needs to be reset. Limbo is a place no one wants to stay - myself included.

~Foo

A large part of me yearns for a reboot.. Infact...

Overly Dramatic Ideas!

Reboot.

I've always felt that Sundren's biggest advantage, its custom setting, was used very poorly. It's to established, to old, to set in its ways. Saying it's a newly established place is like calling Salt Lake City a newly established, technically it's true, but it really isn't (SLC is 166, Sundren was 170 pre second sundering, 180 by current date).

Personally I would love (given a giant DEV team, DMs and resources) to see Sundren get a reboot, perhaps:

Sundren: New World.

The year is 1202, an untamed world awaits the intrepid player as they set out to discover the new world that lies beyond the broken mountains of Sunderers Gate. Work for one of the existing factions or set out to make a name on your own. Whatever your path adventure awaits.

Recently discovered at the base of the Worlds Spine range of mountains Sundren is a land of opportunity, if you can survive it. A sole town, if a collection of rough shacks and tents set in a filthy stretch of scree and mud can be called such a thing, huddled beneath the great Sunderers Gate

Places:

Great Gate (Sunderers Gate) -This town marks the last point of (alleged) civilisation in the North East, a gateway to the unexplored and wild valley interior. Word of Mundus's great ambition has spread and so the town has filled, becoming a quagmire of dreamers, killers and the desperate. A true frontier town where violence is all to often the answer and where the dreams of many are dashed on the sharp rocks of reality.
(See: Wild West films, Abercrombie's excellent 'Red Country', Fallout 1&2)

Lands of the One Eye (Mossdale) - The swampy and fetid forests of the North have kept the orcs who live here hard and sharp, infighting is common, almost as common as fighting against the various other unpleasant inhabitants of the wretched woodlands.

Skrits Hollows (Sharahan Hills) - If it weren't the for tribe of violent, murderous goblins these rolling hills and moors would be picturesque. All to often parties of settlers from the Great Gate make the mistake of trying to settle here and end up as decoration or food for the current inhabitants.

Forest of a Thousand Pains (Viridale) - Home to many tribes of gnolls and other assorted monsterous humanoids, these wild lands are no place for the unexperianced, unless you really enjoy being slowly tortured to death.

The Hot Coast (Sestraish) - The frigid north is often thought to be no place for lizardfolk, but the geography here has conspired to make it a prime settling point for those of a cooler blood. Hot springs rising up near the coast have created an ideal habitat for the settlers of the God Isle, one they'll protect to the last.

Factions:

Mundus - The Man with the Plan. Mundus dreams of a land ruled in his name, many of the groups camped under the Great Gate are here at his invitation. Will you support Mundus, or would you see him fail?

Thay - Commisioned by Mundus to destroy Mount Ariest the small Thayan contingient has been promised a foot hold in the far north, land for an Enclave to call their own. Will you help them create a new Thay in the lands of ice, or will you ensure they never see home again?

Hellstrom - Led by Mikhail 'The Bloody Knight' and his wife Annabelle this proud and wealthy noble family are looking to carve their own lands from the raw territory that lies before them. Only those of noble blood are worth anything to this proud family, or those who've the strength of arms and character to cut themselves such a position. Proud and merciless, will you support them or dare to cross them?

LaCriox - Pledged to Mundus this noble family from waterdeep carries the noble message of its motto 'Duty and Honour Over All' to the wild lands of Sundren. The self appointed protectors of the Great Gate stand proud, but will their voice be lost amid the chaos of the North?

Red Ribbon Trading Co. - Originally from Luskan this trading group has recently risen to power as the largest of the trade groups in the Great Gate (after its rivals suffered from some tragic accidents) the Red Ribbon are happy to charge serious coin for substandard products safe in the knowledge that buyers have no other choice. The Red Ribbon are employing many to expand their holdings and rights within Sundren by any means, those of good conscience need not apply.

The Prestigious Company of Good Knights - A rabble with a terrible name. This group might be considered an adventurers guild, employing anyone who might wield a weapon to do a wide range of jobs from the whimsical to the important, frequently at odds with the Thayans and Mundus's organizations but popular with the people, if only for the showmanship they provide. But are they truly cut out for the wild lands?

Te'var Rath - This band of aloof Sun elves has made camp in one of the quietest corners of Great Gate, while the weapons and supplies that they can sometimes be convinced to trade are beyond the budget of all but the richest of Great Gates inhabitants they are always keen to hear news of the interior of Sundrens lands. Wild guesses on why are common, but whatever it is is they're after they're only telling trusted elves.

Make your own faction - Groups of X players or more can ally together and register themselves at the Town Hall as either an independent interested party or as a sub-faction of an established party. A limit of the number of PC parties may be needed and parties may be removed after a period of inactivity.

Monstrous (playable) factions:

Lizardfolk - Settlers from the God Isles have begun to make their way ashore long the coast, will they trade and make alliances with the existing races and the manling newcomers, or will they take what they want with blood and violence?

Orcs - The violent tribes of the northen Lands of the One Eye have learned of the humans arrival and plot accordingly, some call for war against all those in the valley, some call for an alliance with the Southern Gnolls. Whatever is chosen times are changing for the Orcs.

Goblins - Recently exiled from the Forest of Screams Skrit Spittlefist has led his people to the rolling hills of the midlands, from here they launch fierce attacks against poorly armed explorers from the Great Gate, but the winds of change are blowing and men in armour that is hard to pierce keep being encountered, perhaps there are other routes for the hill tribe?

Gnolls - Life in the matriarchal society of the Forest of Screams is violent and brief, especially for the males, the highest ranking of whom is outclassed by even the lowest of females. The current Matriach sees the newly arrived humans as nothing more than a great bounty of sacrifices to their demonic god Yeenoghu, but her position will only last while she has the ferocity to protect it, challengers with different plans may rise against her.


---

Pipe dreams...

[Silas North]

For the record, I didn't mean dial back the history a little. That would be weird and probably impossible to pull off.

I more meant a reboot as Foo and Doubt said. A reboot with a slightly different set of rules in place that helps encourage players to not be afraid to move certain things along themselves and not be so dependent on DM's.

Also would like to up that list I said before to three possible DMs; as I myself would consider bringing my alter-ego Tome back.

[Saulus]

There's a lot of good suggestions here, and I'd love to be able to do more... but so much of this depends on people volunteering to be part of the solution and taking the initiative. If people need things from me to enable them, I can help with that... and even THAT takes time.

But honestly if all people have to offer is suggestions then sadly I don't think much will change as there's only a small handful of people who have the time and the will to do the work.

[Doubtful]

How about something simple like a Quests compitition:

Write a lore appropriate repeatable quest in a format that can be easily imported into the NWN2 toolset, submit it via either PM or via the Character Requests forum (so it's all secret). Posting it up via the Character Requests would also allow the team to give feedback, advice and info.

Quests would need to be lore appropriate (no dragons), but otherwise as complex or as simple as people want, so long as they stand up to repeatability!

Winners get a bucket of XP and their quest put in game.

[ManUtd4Ever]

How does one find the appropriate format that could be easily imported into NWN2 Toolset if you are not familiar or experienced in using the toolset?