What can be done to save Sundren?

[Doubtful]

#3. Focus on keeping the player base you have: NWN2 Platinum Edition is $148.99 (new) and NWN2 Gold Edition is $159.99 (new) + SoZ at $39.97 (new). These prices will make attracting “new” players to the NWN2 franchise more difficult, which also impacts the number of “new” players looking for a PW.

Sidenote: Good old Games (GOG.com) are selling NWN2 complete for $19.99 saving the discerning buyer nearly $120

http://www.gog.com/gamecard/neverwin...hts_2_complete

[Handsomeman]

In my honest opinion, i dont think theres much we can do save sundren. Ever since gamespy no longer support nwn2, we just stopped getting new players. No new players means no new volunteer staff. Which also means we only have old players left. And if they are like me, they have been playing here for years. Without new content, and less ppl to rp with, they just get bored and stop playing. I hope im wrong, but it seems to me sundren is just dying slowly.

[Doubtful]

How does one find the appropriate format that could be easily imported into NWN2 Toolset if you are not familiar or experienced in using the toolset?

A good question, something as simple as an annotated text document would probably be a good start, that way it can be cut and paste into the toolset with ease(ish).

Here's couple of simple toolset tutorials:
http://www.holyelvis.com/nwn/
http://www.nwn2toolset.dayjo.org/Too...nal/quest.html

What's really needed is the quest itself, conversations, skill checks, what people need to do, what happens if they pass/fail etc.

Perhaps Saulus might be able to give a better description, he has much more experience than me when it comes to quests.

[Farmboy2003]

I keep pinging back between Sundren and other servers because most other RP servers have ekstra class content, and a higher level cap. I keep coming back to Sundren, because it's in higher quality in people, RP, background, design and a lot of other things. So, yeah more classes and more levels, would do a lot. (for me at least)

There's a fairly simple patch program you can use that brings gamespy back. Most other servers highly recommend them to the the players there. I think a lot of people use it. So I don't think gamespy is lost.

I didn't really like the grove faction, but there is a huge gap for the naturelovers/elves/chaotic good types.

And doubt, that thing about the aloof group of sun elves just made my day!

[Thief Of Navarre]

Doubtful made a lot of good points. I hope its that easy! I'd love to see sundren back off its kness

[Seheren]

Honestly, if I had the chance to work with the staff to do something drastic to bring the population back I would. I currently don't play much here, and not much elsewhere. However, I love and miss Sundren. I would dedicate time to help, I just am not sure how to do so.

In my opinion I think a server wipe would be great. Start over with this beautiful world, but with a new set of characters. Those long term characters that have shaped the server in the past can get a bit of a head start. However, none of the positions or lore that comes with that. Start the story over in this immersive and deep setting. Most of the players that shaped the current story are gone, so let a new group make their own. This way, much of the things that have driven characters away can be changed. Try to make sure this server remains for a long time more, because I have a hard time playing ANYWHERE else. This server is the only server that has kept my interest over the past 5-6 years I've played NWN2 and I don't want it to die...

[Doubtful]

Doubtful made a lot of good points. I hope its that easy! I'd love to see sundren back off its kness

I don't think it'll be easy-peasy, but I do think it's doable.

Right now our staff is pretty slim (I'm actually a little scared of asking who's left!), but if people are willing and able to provide content or time then that'll really help everyone. If you've harboured secret scripting, mapping or DM skills then perhaps now's the time to approach us

I think repeatable quests are probably a good starting point - They provide a lot of reward and usability to players even when staff aren't around and can be used in groups or solo.

With that in mind I'm happy to open up a competition for quests, more info can be found in the quest thread here:

http://www.sundren.org/forum/showthread.php?p=145651

[kuscotopia]

Saulus and the dev team have done a great job of getting the world to where it is. Honestly, the amount of work they have managed given fickle interest and fluctuating schedules is pretty fantastic. Especially, considering that Sundren has gone this long without anything as destructive as a server wipe. Bravo.

My past experience with PWs in NWN tell me that a server wipe is not the way to go. They seem tempting, a way to freshen things up. Folks come back for a short time afterwards but ultimately it doesn't fix the issue of stagnation. The server wipe on Palladium back in NWN1 marked the end of the server. Folks will grind for a time, but without fixing the core issues (e.g. stagnation) they will just drop back out again.

In order to fix stagnation, I propose opening up server dev to the entire community. Make a repository for the entire module read-only accessible to the public. Allow folks like foogoo, manu, etc to work on aspects of Sundren that improve the server by submitting deltas (changes) to the admin team for approval. These changes could be the creation of quest lines for their factions, new NPC dialog, etc. The admin team can still remain at the top in terms of quality control as they will be able to approve or reject mods with comments.

I realize that this is easier said than done with NWN2's toolset. Many files are binary which makes merging changes extremely difficult. However, the optimist in me believes that with some amount of coordination it would be doable.

I feel it is the only way to relieve the DM/Dev bottleneck that keeps the world from evolving. We need to take as much stress off the admin/dev team as we can. If folks submit tons of quests/dialog/whatever in some other format and leave it up to 2 or 3 to incorporate into the actual module I fear they simply won't ever be added.

[Seheren]

I totally agree with what Kusco says. A server wipe is not a fix-all. I guess I now see that I left out what I was thinking overall. I think a server wipe will help, while continuing the trend towards more Player control. The story itself is not the problem, I feel, it is just that the story has gotten stuck. Allow the players and DM's to whisk the story along. Starting with a new character base, there are no longer any story-arcs stuck due to absence. These stories can then be moved along with the new players. Bringing in both old and new players to this amazing story.

[Seheren]

I also believe that adding easier access to +1-2 gear in non-faction stores could help. I know that sometimes people are uncomfortable joining factions. This could be simply because they are unfamiliar with the setting, or because their character doesn't truly fit. This has been an issue for quite some time, I think. I like having the higher tier items being craftable/faction/DM only, but the lower end items for those that abstain from factions through the mid-levels should be around.

Some players find that lack discouraging. I know because I've felt that way at times, and have heard the same concerns from others. I know some of these items have been semi-recently added to the loot table, but I'd like to see them in stores as well. I would be more than happy to create a range of low level items with lore related descriptions.

[Lotus]

Part of the problem is scrubs like me getting keys to the DM Client and then getting slapped in the mouth with tons of real-life professional responsibilities, thus doing nothing with said keys. Fear not, Sundarians. When my head's above water again, which should be second week of June, the quests are a-comin'.

Solutions to Population Issues:

1. Coercing your friends to log in.
2. DMs being there to play with your coerced friends.

The numero uno draw of any PW is and should be those dynamic events that happen courtesy of the DM <--> Player relationship, and that's actionable. Yes, we need devs, and new content, and a big story arc, but deep down, we all want to play some DnD, and all we need for that is players and DMs.

[nox74]

Not very fond of a server wipe or increasing the level cap. I'd open to more classes and rework some of them. Then I'd focus on three, four changes, like quests and advertise players of what is new / going on via email. I know it's spammalicious but Sundren needs to spark interest and get back players, I know some of them who are playing on other servers ( I do it from time time too) but everyone is missing good RP.
It's hard to RP when you're alone on the server, especially on European time zone.

My 2 cents.

[Doubtful]

In order to fix stagnation, I propose opening up server dev to the entire community. Make a repository for the entire module read-only accessible to the public. Allow folks like foogoo, manu, etc to work on aspects of Sundren that improve the server by submitting deltas (changes) to the admin team for approval. These changes could be the creation of quest lines for their factions, new NPC dialog, etc. The admin team can still remain at the top in terms of quality control as they will be able to approve or reject mods with comments.

I realize that this is easier said than done with NWN2's toolset. Many files are binary which makes merging changes extremely difficult. However, the optimist in me believes that with some amount of coordination it would be doable.

There's a lot of Sundren stuff that would never be openly accessible, various scripts and in-house fixes and changes that the staff simply don't want widely disseminated. I remember Sean ranting a lot back in the day about IP protection and the scripts never being used anywhere else.

As you mention there's also the major problem of file merging, even with a limited pool of people having access to the SVN problems do crop up with different file versions causing placeable horror or worse, widening the net on access just opens up more potential problems.

That said....

I feel it is the only way to relieve the DM/Dev bottleneck that keeps the world from evolving. We need to take as much stress off the admin/dev team as we can. If folks submit tons of quests/dialog/whatever in some other format and leave it up to 2 or 3 to incorporate into the actual module I fear they simply won't ever be added.

The biggest bottleneck in quests and conversations isn't getting them in game, in fact that part is fairly quick and painless. The real problem is writing the damn things!

Given a normal toolset session I can probably write a couple of interesting quests (slow brain, not hot at creative writing) BUT, in the same amount of time it's possible to implement a lot more than that, if you've got them written all worked out. Plus I know Saulus is a wizz at implementing quests and is happy to do so, provided he doesn't need to write them!

All I can really suggest is for now submit the quests and conversations to us, if that doesn't work then maybe we can think about alternate options, but let's try it first

[Artemis]

How would that help? The old storyline was more fun?

By the current plot you mean war between Banites and Sundren gov't?

And the old plot would be...war with the Bloodmaim? (I haven't been around that long so I'm not even sure what the 'old' plot would be from the opinion of a veteran like u ><)

Or are you referring to the dissolution of a lot of the Factions? In which case I agree that that sucked. Personally, I took the destruction of the Grove as a big hit, as it was the only place for those who love playing Druids/Rangers/Elves to gather and feel at home.

I second this. If there is no Grove, there is no me. I personally believe I was the heart of that place considering the most active player in the forest but because of this major loss I had to resort to my second account and play other characters. I loved my Grove. It was my home and a place I sworn to protect as a Warden and Senior Druid.

I mean, I even tried to request that I be the new caretaker but the Staff denied me so I gave up and let the Grove sink as it did. I was very bitter about that and vanished.

[pixiegirl]

I will try my best to keep my tone constructive, but I make no guarantees.

The events that prompted the current storyline culminated the weekend of August 24-26, 2012. As I write this post, it is nine months to the day that the city soared into the sky. As soon as the dust settled, my PC - one of those promoted to 'near legendary status' - set to work. She made goals. She tried to accomplish this and do that. She gave orders. She gave direction.

Time passed, and nothing happened. The plot faltered.

Obviously, I wasn't working hard enough. So Emiliana made more goals, made more plans, and tried to get folks involved. I thought that if I built up the Legion, then perhaps the elaborate post I wrote in Character Requests called "Tenth Legion Goals and Pursuits" might get some results, because there would be more folks than just Emiliana involved. I scheduled events that I ran, the Tenth Legion Training events, and for a while we had a good turn-out and players seemed to have fun.

Still, time passed, and nothing happened. No goals were accomplished, and Emiliana could only invent so many ways to say "we have not found a way to..." or "we are still waiting to hear about..." to the people looking to her for answers. One-off events happened with no real follow up, and they only served to add more frustration to an already frustrating situation. As Emiliana, my hands were tied: the things I needed to do IC were things that required DMs. Her task, after the city went skyward and the ground was lost, was to reclaim the ground - and despite her power, she couldn't just go out and do so. Roguethree and I used to joke about how Dain and Emiliana could have waltzed into Sestra and reclaimed the place without breaking a sweat, but 1) it wouldn't have counted, and 2) it would have been an unsatisfying story - and story was what we craved.

I continued my efforts until near the end of February 2013. A full six months had passed since the Second Sundering, and I can think of no major advancement to the plot - at least from the Legion end. I am not infallible, and it's past six in the morning as I write this, so I fully admit I may have overlooked something. The end result is that I finally got tired of trying. I did everything I knew to do: I kept an organized Character Request thread with frequent updates so the Staff would know exactly what I was trying to do and how I wanted to do it; I held frequent IC events to get other players involved; I communicated with various DMs to remind them that I would like to do this, that, or the other. What else could I have done? If someone has a feasible answer, I would love to hear it.

Sundren stopped being fun for me when I realized that for all the power given to my PC, she was still powerless to change the world. Fault me for that if you wish it, but I do not enjoy stagnation when I feel I tried to move towards progress instead of waiting for events to be thrown at me. I am human, and I want to have fun when I game the same as anyone else.

All that aside... the OP asked a valid question: what can be done to save Sundren?

To me, the current storyline has to be advanced, or everything needs to be reset. Limbo is a place no one wants to stay - myself included.

~Foo

Foo has laid it out perfectly and I have noticed how much he has done to try to make something and to see him dismissed at all the plots and plans he's made there was no progression anywhere. Same was for everyone else. Everyone was controlled somewhere and couldn't do anything because they were pressed with forced plots they had to accept. Plus, with Gamespy down it only made it worse. As I said before, I knew this server was going to bleed if changes weren't made to cater all players. This is a great server and I enjoy it, but face it, there are flaws too that I have noticed over the years and I don't wish to open a new can of worms about that. Save your current playerbase or there will be no server left to manage.