Discussion: PVP

[Belwas]

Who did you even play?

Why does that matter?

[Ula Fey]

One option then...a period where some zones are full PvP, and some are zero PvP. Then see where everyone spends the most of their time.

That might give statistics about what people actually do when they are given a choice, and what the majority preference is - not just the opinions of those willing to post.

[Anauroch]

I cannot address much at all here... ... too little experience with PvP altogether.

What I did find rather bothersome was the availability of extremely powerful scrolls. Which are seemingly being abused...

I don't think any player will be happy when PvP is initiated - even if it is in the correct manner - and the next moment his/her character is dead.
Sure, if the opposing character is a high-level caster... okay! But otherwise...

So, I'd suggest doing away with those bad-ass scrolls completely!

[CrimsonTears]

Okay, a comment on something I find critical in reducing the amount of senseless PvP -and- makes good planning a lot more important:

-scratch the memory loss-

What does the memory loss results?

People don't have to worry about making well-planned assassination attempts. You can step up to someone, tell them your whole life and they will forget it when you kill them. There's no point in creating a sneaky backstabber whose identity is kept in secret because he/she is good at what he/she does - even Bob the drunk won't be recognized if he as much as kills the target.

People don't have to worry about consequences that come with a world where people can be brought back from the dead. You can do the "kneel or die" routine I heard about over and over and always get away with it if you prey on weak or outnumbered people. Nothing wrong with preying on the weak and outnumbered, the problem is when you can do it with no or little fear of consequence.


Take away the memory loss, make it so the person is disoriented for 1 hour or something and their memory slowly comes back. That will mean being a murderer will require wits and planning, because if you just go ogre and kill people openly, they will know who you are and come back after you. Murdering will be a very serious matter and people will have qualms about doing it because the consequences of doing it wrong can be very bad... as it is on real life. Everyone has murderous thoughts, many don't do it out of morals, but many more don't do it because of fear of the consequences if they get caught. Right now, the memory loss just serves to banalize killings and turn it into something anyone can do and get away with, with minimal brain effort.

[Akuma_Reiten]

Not sure if this will help alot, but on another server I used to Dm on we had a different respawning system.

For the most part we didn't actually treat respawning as coming back to life. So if you died way out in the swamp you could come up with some rp reason on how you got out of there if anyone asks you. When in a party and someone dies we'd ask oocly to see if any one had any raise scrolls, if we did then the character actually did die and we raise them, however if we didn't then we looked at it as there far to hurt to carry on.

Of course this has some holes in it, but for the most part it helped becasue people weren't coming back to life... they were just coming back.

If you killed someone during pvp you could make a choice, actually kill them with Dm approval or leave them for dead. Now of course leaving them means you didn't actully kill them, or perhaps someone found them and raised them.

This added a certaan danger element when you tried to kill someone. Chances are they'd come back and very much remember you stabbing them. This made alot of players seriously plan out their attacks so they could be sure their enemy was dead and buried (Same for assassins).

However trying to permakill another player was frowned upon, so most of the time everyone was stuck in an un-easy peace... until someone did something stupid.

Again, not sure if this helps much but it's an idea.

(On a side note, not allowing Drow players helped alot...lol)

[psycho1976]

Good input there Crimson, and something I agree with. The other side of the coin regarding it is that the players involved can agree to dropping it, but then again..if "Bob the drunkard" made the kill he would say NO WAY most likely.

Also it removes the point of the aftereffects of a PvP. Say if my character got wasted by character X or Y, he would either go:
1) having way more respect for him/her/them

and or

2) Hate their guts and would seek their deaths.

If the players do not agree to skip the memory loss, the following is rather hard to RP neh?

[Vichtor]

Okay, a comment on something I find critical in reducing the amount of senseless PvP -and- makes good planning a lot more important:

-scratch the memory loss-

What does the memory loss results?

People don't have to worry about making well-planned assassination attempts. You can step up to someone, tell them your whole life and they will forget it when you kill them. There's no point in creating a sneaky backstabber whose identity is kept in secret because he/she is good at what he/she does - even Bob the drunk won't be recognized if he as much as kills the target.

People don't have to worry about consequences that come with a world where people can be brought back from the dead. You can do the "kneel or die" routine I heard about over and over and always get away with it if you prey on weak or outnumbered people. Nothing wrong with preying on the weak and outnumbered, the problem is when you can do it with no or little fear of consequence.


Take away the memory loss, make it so the person is disoriented for 1 hour or something and their memory slowly comes back. That will mean being a murderer will require wits and planning, because if you just go ogre and kill people openly, they will know who you are and come back after you. Murdering will be a very serious matter and people will have qualms about doing it because the consequences of doing it wrong can be very bad... as it is on real life. Everyone has murderous thoughts, many don't do it out of morals, but many more don't do it because of fear of the consequences if they get caught. Right now, the memory loss just serves to banalize killings and turn it into something anyone can do and get away with, with minimal brain effort.

Since no assassin can kill a person in one hit unless there is a huge level difference; then everyone would always know who their killer was.

And no memory loss would mean anyone who doesn't have a greater invis potion can't even think about doing away with someone else.

Planning STILL wouldn't come into effect. When they lose their memory for the hour surrounding their death, at least there is an effort to get them alone, away from witnesses. It wouldn't matter if there was no loss...because no fight lasts only one attack.

((And if you're considering the "smart" choices of waiting until your enemy is sufficiently weak enough to slay in one blow, imagine the frustration that would generate on the target. I can imaging the "Player X ganked me!" posts now.))


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Bottom line; CvC is a touchy subject because of the players. If we were all third parties in this, and saw a Cleric of Bane walk by a Paladin of Tyr, I don't think anyone would be surprised when a fight broke out. But when those are OUR characters, suddenly there's a thousand different things to take into consideration.

There really shouldn't be; it's just the simple fact that every player has a double-standard. Instead of responding exactly as the character would (A human instantly running away from or bearing arms on a Drow, or a Paladin of Tyr smiting that Necromancer of Velashroom), players always think first of how THEY would act, and impose outside influences on the situation ("Oh...that necromancer is WAY higher level, I hope he leaves me alone", or "That Paladin is way lower level, I could just start taunting him into a fight, I'm sure to win!" Or: "Those two Drow won't kill me for being arrogant because I'm playing Good, and I should be able to say things and get away with it" or maybe "That person is such a low level that we (a group of Drow) shouldn't just massacre him like we normally would anything on the surface, we'll give him a chance to get away).

Now...some of the above could be considered metagaming. Some could be argued as required to show consideration to your fellow player. Player...not Character.

Concerning Drow (because I play one, so I can be as mean to em as i want =p) How many times do you think a group of humans would ignore a Drow they've never seen before? How many times do you think they'd try to strike up "friendly" conversation?

None; never; not once. Even the "role model Good Drow" Drizzt is confronted with threats, open attacks, insults, or fear any time he meets someone new.

Flip that now. How often do you think Drow stop to have a chat with surfacers? How often do you think they allow someone an opprotunity to escape?

How often do they kill everyone, or kill most everyone and enslave the rest?
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The major problem is that people want to impose their own considerations and restrictions on their character and ignore what would actualy take place in a tense situation.

The problem with this problem....is that few people possess the abstract detachment and self control that is requried to be the character and ignore their own personal impulses and morals/compassions. It's not an easy thing to do. This problem will likely persist no matter what is done. Throw in a good competitive nature, and you might as well be trying to fly to the moon with a sailboat.

[Skro]

Woah... well... I will take the topic starting to comment to graysword:

I have read all the post above and see one consistant thought: the players here are not so much interested in RP as they are in building characters that can take out any and all comers. They will use any small advantage they can devise to do this and they feel justified by the rules and policies of the server to do this. That is why I have left.

Graysword.

The powergaming is an escential part for making a character toughter, but powergaming builds are designed to characters to lvl 20 to 40 (a imposible thing, now in Sundren). If you see my character maybe you should says: "Man, this drow is powergamer because she have +10 to Will saves and briefly she's going to have Divine Shield and she's only lvl 6!". *raises an eyebrow* My character is cleric, her principal stat is Wisdom, and have the feats to be an Harper Agent. Did you see a Cleric/Harper Agent a powergaming build? Maybe, she is going to have high saves.

Now, Im not justifing all the powergaming builds, some builds are really out of RP concideration (like: Cleric/Mage/Pale master, Bard/RDD/Weapon Master, (Paladin/Blackguard/WeaponMaster).
But if you make a good selection of feats and this feats may power it, I don't see the big deal. You are a Wizard, you have 13 Int, you may have 40 of AC on lvl 6 or 8 if you where an elf:

10 AC base
+5 AC (20 Dex)
+4 AC (Mage Armor)
+X AC (Shield)
+10 AC (Improved Expertise)
+4 AC (Haste)
+X AC (Light Shield with only 5% Arcane Failure)
TOTAL: 40+ CA

This build is powergamer but remains on the RP rules (you only have a Shield and you must say "I use it to parrying the arrows")
Before I continue Im saying this: A powergamer is not an evil person, but, If he uses the powergaming to bully other characters, he must be banned.

While PvP does have its place and can be fun if done right. I think back to this server before PvP was common and I think it was better before we had packs of stalking drow, or groups hunting drow.
The bottom line to me is that Greysword was trying to stay out of PvP and the other players did not respect that option. I've encountered that myself and it seems to be a developing and unfortunate trend in Sundren.

I acepted the rules of PvP (I only had 1 Semi-PvP with two drows who fooled me) because the DM is controlling the situation and I know the DM may help the death to lose XP or Gold (or not). But Im still having a good treating with the users of my killers (I whisp them when I log) because this people not are the tipical "OMG I KILLED YUO NOOB! IM PRO" and I know them will not PvP any char without DM Control.
Anyway if my character is engaged to a PvP with no posibilities of flee, I have spells memorized for a Non Lethal encounter (because Im Neutral Good and my RP is not murder, and even forgive the person who tries to kill her).

UMD and Buff discussion

I don't know if the UMD skill (Class skill or not) is enabled to all.
I think the UMD skill if used by a Warrior, must help him to wear an armor or robe to disguise.
Actually the UMD is still a powergaming tool. In many NWN1 servers of Argentina, exist the tipical build of: Warrior (32) / Weapon Master (7) / Rogue (1). The rogue level is taked near the last lvl of Weapon master because, in lvl 7 the weapon master gains the Critical Ki feat. And because in the server (Nordock, maybe you should know) exist a monk-only robe who gives you 15 Damage Resistance and Permanent Haste (Blurred Death). So, the characters raises them AC to 45+ and uses rapiers of 10-20 critical range. And obviously, not buffed.
So, I propose to make a script for that:

UMD CD: 15 + spell lvl.
If the CD is passed, the user cast efectively the spell.
If the CD is failed:
1. The character mispells and casts another spell (preferently harming, like Wail of the Banshee or Flesh to Stone)
or
2. The scroll explodes causing 1d10 of fire and sonic.
or
3. Wild magic effect. (In NWVAULT have the script)

This way if the warriors or any one of who don't have UMD like class skills may have to trash a feat on that feat who regularizes this situation. And If they not want to trash a feat, they will think twice if may be cool to use that scroll of Destruction.
This excludes the scrolls of Wizards used by Wizards and Sorcerers, divine spells scroll used by Clerics, and druid scrolls used by Druids.

[Squat45]

Not sure if this will help alot, but on another server I used to Dm on we had a different respawning system.

For the most part we didn't actually treat respawning as coming back to life. So if you died way out in the swamp you could come up with some rp reason on how you got out of there if anyone asks you. When in a party and someone dies we'd ask oocly to see if any one had any raise scrolls, if we did then the character actually did die and we raise them, however if we didn't then we looked at it as there far to hurt to carry on.

Of course this has some holes in it, but for the most part it helped becasue people weren't coming back to life... they were just coming back.

If you killed someone during pvp you could make a choice, actually kill them with Dm approval or leave them for dead. Now of course leaving them means you didn't actully kill them, or perhaps someone found them and raised them.

This added a certaan danger element when you tried to kill someone. Chances are they'd come back and very much remember you stabbing them. This made alot of players seriously plan out their attacks so they could be sure their enemy was dead and buried (Same for assassins).

However trying to permakill another player was frowned upon, so most of the time everyone was stuck in an un-easy peace... until someone did something stupid.

Again, not sure if this helps much but it's an idea.

(On a side note, not allowing Drow players helped alot...lol)

I think this is very good. The last server I played on in NWN was a "dream world", so the analysis there was that when you died you just entered the void and was sent back by the gods. For the most part, the players there role-played the situation VERY well! Death was nearly always a big point in the backstory of any character.

My main PC there died three times (he got up to 24th level), 1 was due to serious lag on the server... but the other 2 were key points in the development of the character.

Here, without having the elaborate and mystical connections... having a good explanation for death should be done... this is, afterall, a role-playing server.

The above is a VERY good idea, in my humble thoughts.

[CrimsonTears]

Since no assassin can kill a person in one hit unless there is a huge level difference; then everyone would always know who their killer was.

And no memory loss would mean anyone who doesn't have a greater invis potion can't even think about doing away with someone else.

I see no problem in that. Add to it disguises and attacking in the dark and we have something smart. So, you're jumped in the dark, maybe even are blinded before the attack with spells... that's a murder and the person can't know who did it. Just step in front of someone, tell your name and kill them, knowing you'll get away with it is plain stupid. It just makes the single risk of going kill someone (besides the everpresent risk of dying yourself) that they get away... and then comes in the fact most people won't want to be recognized. Guess that explains why people trying to run are still saying they get chased and killed anyways?

[GodBeastX]

Additionally, I admit I've yet to see a DM other than you, GBX, give xp to people whom back off from situations... I don't think there's a great tendency to reward those whom don't care to risk their lives against elementals, or evil necromancer mages in the forest.

While you may not have ran into their events, I know this not to be true. DMs even set guys immortal so you can't kill them. Unless you run you die. I don't, but others do.

[wangxiuming]

Maybe if the server imposed a rule about how often a character could kill another character? For example, if the rule is you're only allowed to kill one person per week, you're less likely to choose low level characters, as that would be pretty meaningless. Or even if you do still target low level characters, you wouldn't be able to kill another character for a week. The dead character could then report OOC their killer on the forums or something, so people would know who's done what this week, and the rule could be enforcible.

People would still be able to engage in PvP as often as they want if both parties mutually assented - Players would just not report the PvP afterwards. And of course, killers would still be allowed to defend themselves if they were attacked.

Just my two pennies. Maybe they're shiny, maybe they're those dirty ones that you're not sure who's grimy hands have been on.

[GodBeastX]

I see no problem in that. Add to it disguises and attacking in the dark and we have something smart. So, you're jumped in the dark, maybe even are blinded before the attack with spells... that's a murder and the person can't know who did it. Just step in front of someone, tell your name and kill them, knowing you'll get away with it is plain stupid. It just makes the single risk of going kill someone (besides the everpresent risk of dying yourself) that they get away... and then comes in the fact most people won't want to be recognized. Guess that explains why people trying to run are still saying they get chased and killed anyways?

Well, that's very utopian of you. I can't even get people to acknowledge someone is stealthing nearby.

"*Walks around randomly and bumps into XXXX* HEY! SOMEONE IS HERE!"
"*Looks about the area* Anyone have true seeing?! I think someone is here!"

And sometimes people just talk OOC about finding someone. Soon we'll even be able to see tells from people going to each other. I wish you players could see everything I did, though, you might look at things in a different light.

In all honesty, the PVP problems are definitely not the majority at all. Sundren isn't running wild with "everyone is going to get killed in PVP eventually!" I know alot of players who havn't.

However, there is a problem and I made this thread to try to discuss it. I think people are making alot of valid points. Let me see if I can summarize some:

* UMD is being exploited to hell and back
* Occassionally someone ignores the rules and just obliterates people
* People ignore NPCs in the area
* No fear of death
* No real RP in some conflicts
* No OOC Respect at times

Am I missing any?

I'm thinking maybe PVP should be consentual if not provoked through RP. AKA, if someone is just walking alone in the woods, then you have to ask them if it's alright, otherwise it's not? But if someone is running their mouth and threatening you, then you can attack back without consent? Would that help at all?

[CrimsonTears]

Well, that's very utopian of you. I can't even get people to acknowledge someone is stealthing nearby.

"*Walks around randomly and bumps into XXXX* HEY! SOMEONE IS HERE!"
"*Looks about the area* Anyone have true seeing?! I think someone is here!"

And sometimes people just talk OOC about finding someone. Soon we'll even be able to see tells from people going to each other. I wish you players could see everything I did, though, you might look at things in a different light.

Well, I don't see everything you do, of course. I can only vouch for myself and the people I have interacted with. Maybe I've been really lucky and the people I've been with (or stealthed around) never tried to pull any trick like that, so far whenever I had someone talk to me while I sneaked, sending a tell "I'm stealthed, with a skill of about ##" was enough. More than once the person just said "Okay, sorry" and didn't even ask for rolls. Not saying the opposite doesn't happens, just my own experience so far.

Am I missing any?

Well, I still think the memory loss should go If my thoughts are utopian and people metagame other stuff like stealth and invisibility, doesn't it means those same people would metagame knowing who killed them anyways too? It's not that I'm against any and all PvP, but I think killing someone is something taken too lightly. And not in a xp penalty sense, I mean the way many people seem to see killing as the solution to any grudge. The memory loss just makes it even more friendly to the PvP-happy who would kill someone far saying "I don't like you".

I'm thinking maybe PVP should be consentual if not provoked through RP. AKA, if someone is just walking alone in the woods, then you have to ask them if it's alright, otherwise it's not? But if someone is running their mouth and threatening you, then you can attack back without consent? Would that help at all?

That could help, I think. It just needs some fine tunning so people don't loophole it. For exemple, the "kneel or die" thing, it's terribly easy to claim "not kneeling was provoking me in the RP" as a justification.

[Cassiel]

I think PVP death should carry a long respawn timer unless resed by a player. Something to the tune of 12 rl hours. You wake up in the temple and do remember everything that happened, but it's foggy.

If an assassin wants to off someone, they do it in disguise or covered ala ninja outfit. Not remembering things is just kind of silly imo. "Yeah bob, I keep waking up in the temple, they say they find me face down in the mud and I have no idea why! i don't even know how I got there!"

We all have more than one character, so having a long timer for PVP will just mean that you log onto the other char if you still want to play. This would definatly give a reason to fear death via PVP. I self-impose this rule myself and still have plenty of fun.

edit:
The 12 hour timer will also help assassins be relevant. They are hired to get rid of someone so that RP can happen without that person. For instance, I like Mary so I off her husband Bob so I can go mac on her for 12 hours without him butting in and farting in my salad. Or the assassin kills the leader of those henchmen so that they can be divided and conquered without his leadership.