Discussion: PVP

[GodBeastX]

I would like to have a discussion with the community of Sundren about PVP. This isn't a place to point fingers. This is meant to be a constructive thread. If it winds up failing at this then I will delete the thread.

This is the community's chance to offer some insight into how they feel PvP should occur.

No posts with "I hate PvP". PvP isn't going away, but risks, rewards, outcomes, requirements, etc, might change.

Think of this as suggestions.

[Pycroft]

Opinion

Hopefully this will be constructive

I enjoy the way PVP works now. I do think there should be some RP penalty in some way for PVP. Great example..Kai and I have history. We had an altercation, he shackled me, brought me to the guard, and long story short, I was forced to pay 500 coins as a fine. Even though I was not docked experience or coins, there was a penalty. Of course, a dm was there for this, but players should be able to figure it out themselves. (Note to everyone...I realize this is in a perfect world, and probrably can't really happen).

What I do think is possible, and maybe controversial - I think that anyone on an official 'Wanted' list or of a 'wanted' species (i.e. drow) should not have get a tell or have it RP'd why they are being killed. It is obvious why they are being killed, and this will take away the metagaming possibilities. When I RP I always consider real life...and that makes me make IC decisions that I know OOC are silly. When you consider real life...if someone is on the FBI most wanted list, you obviously aren't walking around talking to people...you watch around every corner and have troubles sleeping wondering if someone will come in and get you. Can't think of a good analogy for the drow, but you get the picture.

Thanks for the opportunity to give suggestions.

Ewan Rice (Jasper)
Marco Modrzecki

[Xym]

My post is a bit more of a suggestion for PvP. If you'd rather me put it into the Suggestions forum I can remove my post and move it over there.

Is there any way you can default everyone to hostile instead of friendly? There are a few various reasons to do this. People that want to track everyone else would enjoy this feature, people that just don't like other people would enjoy this feature.

I think it would be best if there was an option you could set somewhere to set the default to either hostile or friendly, cause good natured people would probably be friendly to most by default.

[Eternal Serf]

I mentioned in one of my other posts on the topic of PvP (and Godbeastx replied) that faction scripting would eliminate a lot of the BS involved with PvP in terms of sending tells and the like. By belonging to one faction or group, a character is basically saying that they are open to being attacked or at least subdued by members of opposing factions (at least thats what I think is supposed to happen).

I like the idea of opposing factions going to war with each other, of course this could cause problems for players being waylaid out in the wilds by themselves, or low level PC's being killed by by high level opposing PC's, but I think an "Open" or "Closed" season on PvP could alleviate these problems.

Simply put; Open Season; is declared by DM's on the server in advance and members of the various factions can then attack/kill/subdue members of the opposing factions without having to spend time in discussion about their attack. Of course, this doesn't mean that players can't engage in roleplaying. If surrounded some PC's might surrender or be taken hostage by the other side. Some DM's may actually capture some PC's and have them hostage to opposing factions, making some interesting scenarios for players. In Closed Season; PvP will still exist but PC's will be expected to send tells and give reasons for their actions.

Otherwise my personal feeling to PvP is that I dislike the idea of people playing 'evil' characters, they are destructive and do not make the server a more friendly place, they create fear and intimidation and are no fun.....SOMETIMES. A well played bad guy can make an adventure a lot of fun, they can really add to the personal feeling of satisfaction of players when they take them down or escape from their clutches. Being evil doesn't mean griefing someone time and again, or bullying them. It means that they have a different set of values than most players and PC's and that this will cause conflict. Is conflict necessarily a bad thing? I don't think so, I think it could add to the ongoing story of the server, but it could just as easily kill the interest of a lot of players.

Only time will tell.

[Soulbadguy]

Im gonna speak as a player on this.


For one .. I know that areas are limited. PVP is happening ALOT because we don't have enough areas. We are seeing each other as players.. way too much. There is nowhere to run.

Solution for me is : I am going to be patient and wait for the server to expand. Once some more areas are implemented in the updates to come players will see less of each other.


Also I dislike the idea of having alot sooo many scrolls available... this is causing people to lash out with destructive spells and bigby's I feel like everyone is fighting mages and clerics.

Oh but I just heard that this is being handled now.. so that is cool.


I do like how the rules are with PVP.. but I still feel many people are ignoring NPC's during PVP. I feel if a DM is not around.. players who are about to PVP should just assume that they should "take it outside".


I also feel that Permadeath should be considered to players who take big risks during PVP. If a player decides to walk into a hostile situation that can virtually be at a big risk. For example ( I pick on drow cause I play one ) a drow walks into an area and talks smack with a bunch of PC's. The PC's tell him to leave.. and give warning.. The drow decides he can take on the crew and ends up getting his/her arse handed to them. Well .. that was a dumb idea for any drow to do.. that should be high consideration for permadeath.

Adding to the above paragraph.. that will make people fear death more. And it should be even on all sides.. wether good or bad.

I also feel that players for now.. if they are in an overwhelming group and see a player they confronted recently before or someone that they have beat down recently, should allow the player to run. For the sake of RP just say.. " I already beat you down before.. leave here!" A hint or warning.. due to the fact that the player is outnumbered. If the outnumbered player decides to RP their character as a bad ass.. then they are up for an ass beating and consideration for permadeath.

I know that certain situations can change what i stated above but this is just my feelings for general scenerios. I think this would lessen the PVP a little but allowing players to run if overmatched.

( some of the stuff I stated above like not enough areas and too many scrolls are being dealt with . I just said them so people won't waste time writing on those subjects )

[Xym]

Oooh, I just had another interesting idea that spins off the permadeath from PvP poll and SBG's post. If there is some way of scripting how many times the church will res you from a PvP death, you could set it to say 1 a day, then if a player gets ganked randomly or makes a mistake they aren't permadead. But if it happens often then they would be permadead. The other part of this is maybe making the "res timer" 1 day, and have the 1 church res, that way if you die once, you get ressed by the church, you die again and have to wait 24hrs to be raised by the church. Both of these are avoided by having a player raise you.

[Zoberraz]

There are two things about the way PvP is executed that I'd like to see toned down:

Firstly, don't take other characters for idiots if they obviously aren't. Some of us won't just stand there and let people roleplay us into a corner, or let events unfold and just stand there with our jaw dropping. Some of us are very willing to jump into the fray and stop another whom is trying to pull crap off - and if you keep doing it, you'll answer for it.

Secondly, the way people make usage of the Use Magic Device skill, along with some high-level scrolls, is lamentable. I hear that drow elves are being routinely killed by extremely powerful scrolls. They, in turn being a minority, are using a lot of underhanded tricks (which is okay, they are drow) to try to survive... which unfortunately happens to include just the same sort of spam scroll use others use on them... because they now expect everyone to do it!

This ends up being that whenever someone whom actually wants to fight them non-cheaply, they get the drow pounce on them, expecting them to use powerful spell scrolls, and do the very same trick before they can. This just creates a very unfortunate vicious circle.

Personally, I'd like it that people would try to not spam-use scrolls of a level being equal to half their level. I'd also like to see the UMD skill go back to being a skill uniquely used by rogues, warlocks and bards. Seeing a stop to the 'buffing-to-near-demigod-status' thing going on would be really nice, but there are Earth Elementals out there that tell me some people have a good reason to want 44 AC (Maia is a very good archer... but her best base attack score is +16. Just being at AC 30 makes someone difficult to hit).

edit: I kinda like Xym's idea.

[undeadsteak]

I like how the PvP is but i dont like how people use Disarm, because it allows you to disarm your opponents weapons and just take them.. any rule on that?

[Elusa]

I think most of this would be solved if people stopped trying to "win". This just causes everyone to go all out with buffs and potions and healing kits. And scrolls. I hate UMD.

Duels have lost all RP significance. I'll watch a fight where half the time both participants are just healing themselves with potions and kits and spells. How about just NOT healing in a fight. If you think about it, it makes no sense for a fighter in full plate to suddenly whip out a potion and chug it while his opponent is attacking. Healing kits make even less sense. Spells are the only healing method that makes sense. And I don't mean healing from scrolls. Go all out for PvE, not PvP.

All I can say is RP, RP, RP. Make it fun. If you win by turning yourself into a demi-god, you haven't really won anything at all. All you proved is that you can pwn. But if you can lose, and further your character development in the process, you've won something important. Do something more than, "I killed you, so I'm better than you." "No, you cheated."

And I also agree that Xym's idea is pretty great An alternative idea might be to set a % chance of being revived. Something high to begin with, like 95% or even 100%, and then drops to 50%, then 25%, so on. Kind of a penalty for excessive PvP. Can we start a thread on this idea?

[Vichtor]

My thoughts on PvP, in a nutshell:

It's not PvP (Player vs. Player) it's CvC (Character vs. Character). If your mindset is what YOU can do to beat that player you're fighting, you've already lost. You should be asking what your character WOULD do in that situation.

MUCH bigger Risk. (The reward will handle itself)

Lasting results.

[Stratigo]

Theres a reason potions get AoO.

Though yes fix the scrolls. My fighter can't compete.

[Abyss]

Personally, I think that PvP should not be frowned upon. Not encouraged, but not frowned upon.

However, any PvP death at all should be perma. Period. You'd better have a good RP reason to engage someone in combat, 'cause if you screw up, you're character's dead. This should make people think twice before they do it. I don't like the any other method (One PvP death a day, percentage of being revived, etc.) because it seems to say "It's okay to PvP every once and a while, even if you don't have a good reason".

Hrmm... On a final note, I think that any and all PvP combats should be supervised by a DM. I know it's a pain to call one up (If there's even any on) but it should prevent any complaints ("He used a scroll after agreeing to a sword duel!").

Just my $0.02. Of course, my view is a totalitarian one - very much anti-PvP. Of course, I think this whole decison comes to where the server stands: Pro-PvP (As long as you have a good reason, but not every five minutes) and anti-PvP (You can only do it with an excellent reason and even then only once in a blue moon with DM supervising).

[Scramasax]

If I may...

Though it may be desirous for 'realism', it inevitably leads to player versus player unhappiness in a good fraction of cases. I'm not sure the benefit outweighs the gains. We do play to be happy after all. PvP should only be for fun; and then, only for fun for both parties. If there is cause for PvP because a player is acting like a jerk, it should be escalated to the DMs.

Mutually consensual PvP is my vote, for what that's worth.

Edit: Ack. Just read that Sundren uses memory loss rules. Makes realism even weaker. Hard for me to see the role-playing point of PvP then. I prefer RPing it as barely surviving, but with memory intact. Good thing there's presently no penalty other than a bruised ego. Permadeath would be great for realism, but as I said... create unnecessary unhappiness, imho.

[Echelon13]

When engaging in PvP, remember to actually abide by the PvP rules; I've been getting reports of numerous infractions of late and the DM team will not stand for it.
Specifically, remember to set the opponent to hostile before you engage, and ensure there is either good IC reason or give the person a warning via a tell.
This is not pointing fingers, just a reminder.

[Zoberraz]

I think most of this would be solved if people stopped trying to "win". This just causes everyone to go all out with buffs and potions and healing kits. And scrolls. I hate UMD.

*facepalms* This is not the first time I see this. No offense meant, but I see it as hypocrisy.

I'm not going to go to my PnP buddies, sit down at the head of the table ('cause I'm the DM, ha!) and tell them to stop trying to win. Just the same way, when Shilaqui, Ulfgar, Chyrub and Fenec come face to face with derro dwarves, salamanders and beholders while they are creeping stealthily in the ruins of an ancient dwarven city and that they make a blunder that makes most of the patrols and search parties turn on them in pursuit -- I expect them to pull all the stops to get themselves out of that situation. Potions, scrolls, kitchen sinks, wands... everything.

Why? Those characters wish to survive. Those characters have goals, a mission, motivations to go on - a reason to live and maybe something to fight for.

If they want to survive and to fulfill their goals... won't the characters themselves do everything they can to make sure they are the one standing in the end?

...then again, as a DM, I don't grant meteor swarm, drown and bigby hand-line spells to my players when they kill goblins, umber hulks and gnolls (not that they ever fought them, but meh). There's a good chance that just successfully tweaking the loot tables on that level will have a large part of the problem die off on its own on Sundren.

Notice how people use Bigby spells against other players, but not against NPCs or in DM encounters.

Everyone and their mothers have UMD. The problem is that Use Magic Device is - on Sundren - being mostly used to make it so that people are going to be able to use scrolls -- but that's not the skill's only use! UMD can be used to have a rogue manage to figure out how a wizard's magical wand function, or allow a bard to wear one of the special drow armors despite them being for Elf+Evil only. Sundren's low amount of magic items (and position as a low magic setting)spoils part of the skills use seeing there aren't yet many items which are specialized and have some restrictions (something I am pointing out - I know its going to be corrected - but I do not view UMD's primary use to be scroll use - I see it as being able to have a rogue equip those special monk boots).

Another suggestion I'd bring up would be to tweak some shops to make it so that only one instance (or a limited number) of an item is going to be up per server 'life' (per restart, essentially) - similarly to how the Temple of Helm had only one set of Ogre Power gloves available... Maia had to wait a few days to manage to be able to get some for herself. That means that people will stop stockpiling Mage Armor, Shield and Protection from Evil scrolls in several stacks of 10... which will make the odds of those being used frequently in 'buff-up-to-demigod-status' situation a lot less frequent.

When do you really want to use that Protection from Evil scroll? When you are fighting evil NPCs... or when you confront that Succubus? People in PnP are picky - they'll hoard some of their consumables until the right moment or the right time (when they see some use come out of it) and it seems it could apply here.

After all, how many potions of Cure Serious Wounds can the Temple of Helm in Miroku's post make in one day? I don't recall the helmites or any other church having a soft drink business.