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Grapple was removed because it was broken.
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The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
George Carlin -
Rename the feat, recode it to work as a corrected Feint...?
Dunno if that'd work as easily as I'm making out. I'd imagine the big problem would be it working as a move action and not a full round action.Running across the mountains, attacking with an oversized scalpel, cometh Helga Great-Wyrm! And she gives a mighty bellow:
"Brace yourself, oh human speck of dust! You are made of meat and I am very hungry!"Comment
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Feint is fine, and powerful as all get out. If you want to feint+sneak then you need to plan ahead in your class creation to do so. There's no half assing it.
A rogue/invisible blade using feint+sneak attack in a standup fight against any melee class (assuming they are equally geared) is going to tear that melee class up. A rogue/IB/Shadow Thief of Amn is even more deadly.
Unless, it's like, a druid in elemental form. Or a dual wielding ranger. Or a cleric. Or Favored Soul. Or a dwarven defender. Maybe a Frenzied Bezerker. Perhaps a barbarian. Definitely a paladin, assuming you're neutral...
But against a fighter? Or a weapon master? Yeah, it'll take 'em.
I forget which side I'm arguing for.Originally posted by ThePaganKingComment
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Speaking from experience even with maxed out bluff ranks, the StoA ranks, +6 from my gear and +1 from my charisma I still struggle to get it to stick on a full BAB mob. I dont know about PvP because I can normally talk my way out of fighting but in PvE enemies of equal level generally have a distinct advantage for some reason or another (Bolstered spot ranks?).Originally posted by Kaizen View PostOriginally posted by roguethreeComment
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There's also +7 in bluff from feats - 3, exactly. But I don't know if that will help against mobs, honestly. That's more of a design thing that you can't really do anything about.Originally posted by ThePaganKingComment
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The moral of this story is, even the class that a Fighter is supposed to be able to beat in toe-to-toe combat, it can't.Originally posted by Kaizen View PostRunning across the mountains, attacking with an oversized scalpel, cometh Helga Great-Wyrm! And she gives a mighty bellow:
"Brace yourself, oh human speck of dust! You are made of meat and I am very hungry!"Comment
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Well thats only because the rogue is highly specialised at the expense of survivability. He actually has to go toe to toe with a fighter whos AC rarely relies on dexterity. Its still pretty daunting.Originally posted by Root View PostOriginally posted by roguethreeComment
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Toe-to-toe, the fighter should cut through the feinting rogue. Rogue might get some licks in, but without HiPS, no chance (unless he's "prepared" the battlefield).Originally posted by CornutoComment
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I agree.Originally posted by roguethree View Post
But the rogue should never want to engage toe-to-toe with anyone. Why would they?Selanus Raleigh - Thief; Manipulator; Information gatherer; devout worshipper of Mask.
01/04/2012Comment
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Depends if we're talking pure, non-powerbuild fighter and pure, non-powerbuild rogue, or a Fighter X/Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Weaponmaster 7 and a Rogue 10/Assassin 7/IB 3 or something.
I think in the first case the fighter would win, and the second case the rogue would dominate sheerly through HiPSRunning across the mountains, attacking with an oversized scalpel, cometh Helga Great-Wyrm! And she gives a mighty bellow:
"Brace yourself, oh human speck of dust! You are made of meat and I am very hungry!"Comment
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sneak attack is cool. I love being useless against all the undead baddies out there. good thing I'm on their side
After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.Comment
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On the OP, Rogues are definitely powerful in their versitility. RP-build rogues are my personal favorite, even if they do sub-par in combat even for a support class. If you can convince your opponents that the enemy is a mile behind you and closing fast, they are less likely to be watching a refugee stab their leader while they fortify.
In responce to the Feint discussion, in my experience, Feint works a lot more than calculations would indicate (Kitsunetsume has +38 Bluff normally), namely because a fair number of people use listen instead of spot to find stealthing opponents. When the characters like Kirk can easily get to the 70s in hide, there are almost no spells that increase move-silent (although a +50 circumstance modifyer from being the target of a Silence spell would be nice. . . . ), this making Listen far more reliable for detection, and leaving said people much more vulnerable to any tricks in front of their face. Especially when your standing there with 43 AC.
But those blighters with the towersheilds on Schild still suck. . . .
Feint actually works more often on the Mossdale Ambushers than those bruisers. I don't get it.
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Especially considering the obsurd armour check they 'should' be accruing.Originally posted by Kitsunestume View PostOriginally posted by roguethreeComment
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