Class Review: Rogue

[[DM] Grinning Death]

I stand corrected =P

[Root]

HiPS and/or Feint, 'nuff said.

Correction:

Disjunction Scroll or Spell Breach scroll. 'nuff said.

A rogue who is not suffering from inventory space problems due to his piles of scrolls, potions, and utility items isn't rogueing it up enough.

This class is made to turn money into power. What is one mans vendor trash is a rogues situational item. And they need items for every concievable situation.

[Thief Of Navarre]

The maths on Feint is bloody terrible. Very frustrating.

Currently d20+Bluff (a maximum total of 43+cha at level 20) vs d20+BAB+Spot (a maximum of 63+wis at 20)

Changing the opposing skill to the correct Sense Motive might help, as would adding 1/2 BAB to the attackers bluff roll.

I'd definately be up for that! shame its hardcoded.

I love rogues. Personally mine doesnt have a problem with AB. At lvl13 he has +17/+12/+17 AB while using Expertise. He does have invisible blade levels though so the AB isnt nearly as shocking as it could be, add to that weapon focus and enhancement bonus.

So weilding a single weapon without being in expertise mode (he ALWAYS is mind you since his AC sucks) he could effectively have 22/17; not too shabby at level13

[Snowmane]

Hardcoding does screw thing up. I have had success with feint on other servers but I have never tried it here so I don't know how bad it is.

Maybe something like Doubtful suggested could be achieved simply by adding some better +bluff equipment to the game for feinters? Maybe faction gear with the highest echelon getting as high as +10 or more? I know this isn't a "balance" thread, but it's food for thought if Feint is such a problem.

Then again, I don't play a rogue or a feinter, so why would I want them to be tougher? Nevermind, forget the whole thing!

[Doubtful]

It's hardcoded? Son of a....

[roguethree]

The Feint mechanic should stand as-is. The defender's AB is representative of combat experience, the Spot (wish it could be Sense Motive) being additional training to detect falsehoods; they should combine. Also, maths fail. Feint is opposed by BAB and Spot, so the Rogue gets:

1d20 + 23 (max skill ranks) + CHA + Gear and buffs

Defender gets:

1d20 + BAB (Max 20 with current level cap except in rare instances) + Spot + Spot gear and skill mods.

Against a 20th level fighter, it's 1d20 + 23 + miscellaneous v. 1d20 + 20 + Spot (probably 0). 43+ v. 40+.

Against a cleric, it's 1d20 + 23 + miscellaneous v. 1d20 + 15 - 20 (Divine Power, maybe) + Spot (probably 6 from WIS). 43+ v. 41 - 45+.

Against a wizard, it's 1d20 + 23 + Misc (43+) v. 1d20 + 10 + Spot (probably 2) (30+). 43+ v. 32+

Against a paladin, it's 1d20 + 23 + Misc. v. 1d20 + 20 + Spot (2). 43+ v. 42+.

Potentially hard to Feint with Spot opposing Bluff: Druid, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Spirit Shaman, Arcane Archer, Arcane Trickster, Assassin, Combat Medic, Dark Hunter, Darkwood Stalker, Duelist, Defender, Invisible Blade, Master of Radiance, Shadowdancer, Shadowbane Stalker, Shadow Thief, Dragon Disciple, Master of Many Forms, Thayan Knight.

This list looks intimidating, but many of these PRCs are built off of classes that already have Spot as a class skill. See boldface for the potentially unique occurrences of Spot as a class skill. Your Feint is going to work just fine.

[Thief Of Navarre]

I think its just the fact that against any full bab class with spot your just clutching at straws since they get an extra buffer that you dont ~ namely their BAB added to the defending roll.
At least if an invisible blade could Take10 instead of Take5 you might have a good chance of beating your opponents check.

Back on topic. Does anyone take any of the rogue special abilities beyond Improved Evasion?

[Doubtful]

Not really a maths fail, I gave theoretical maximums. The final maximum for both will depend on the build.

[roguethree]

The extent of that is Ranger, Monk (sort of), Duelist, Defender, Thayan Knight (and Arcane Archer, sort of).

[Cornuto]

Go ahead and knock yourself out trying to stand toe-to-toe with any melee attack build and use feint.

"Hah! I just denied your Dex bonus to AC next round!"
"Cool story bro, I just power attacked you in the kidney for all of your lame d6 HD."

[Thief Of Navarre]

Feint is 'kind' of effective toe to toe since it only takes a move action (a single attack) and you can effectively get all the rest of you main hand attacks and your offhand ones.
Lester's at 6D6(+1D2 bleed) x 3 is quite a lot of damage to land in a single round assuming he hits home!

*edit* In case your confused it makes your opponent flat footed for the remainder of the current round so if you open with feint your next sneak will land before his second attack in that round assuming he hasnt got improved initiative.

[Snowmane]

Go ahead and knock yourself out trying to stand toe-to-toe with any melee attack build and use feint.

"Hah! I just denied your Dex bonus to AC next round!"
"Cool story bro, I just power attacked you in the kidney for all of your lame d6 HD."

You have completely disregarded the fact that every rogue attack for that round will be a sneak attack. Combined with crippling strike (every sneak attack drains 2 Str), you can bring a fighter to his knees.

Kirk Carshby did this to Maneae last night (with HiPS, not Feint, but the concept is the same).

[Cornuto]

Kirk Carshby did this to Maneae last night (with HiPS, not Feint, but the concept is the same).

Its not, with HiPS you don't stand there and get hit back, and he's not a pure rogue.

[Snowmane]

Actually he got hit back pretty badly. That 6 second timer to restealth allowed me to get full attacks everytime he dropped stealth. Almost got him, but a disarm that made my weapon go *poof* swung the fight in his favor. Note to self: carry multiple bastard swords

[Root]

It's hardcoded? Son of a....

If we can code in grapple, I see no reason we can't code in an altered Feint ability (make it a custom ability, like Charge)

Then again, both those abilities were kind of broken.