Caster vs Melee

[Talleyman99]

Hmm everyone looks at this from a solo aspect. DnD is a group game. Casters are powerful and yes can stop melee with one spell but unlike the Fighters think most the casters do not stand around with that many spells on. You could very well walk over and beat the snot out of them. Fully buffed yes they will be tuff.

I for one enjoy having a fighter, barb or what ever infront of my caster way way more then ever trying to spell up and do it myself. Infact my Sorcs build is not even one that can solo I need fighters.

What I will say is lets remove the "insta-getaway" spells make it so that if a caster gets caught in a fight they have to scramble to spell up or what ever. It's never gonna be even but I think the fighter types sell themselfs short I've seen them do wowza stuff that I know if i cant get you with a one spell im done for.

Also make a casters rest time equal to the time to change full plate off or no if resting time is an issue thats toaly fair to me

[Intrepid42]

DnD is balanced for group PvE. However, the balancing for melee PC's explicitly assumes the gathering of loot. For example, almost the entirety of a fighter's defensive progression comes from getting better and better items. Whereas, the bulk of a caster's power progression comes from spells, which are built into the classes.

In Sundren 4 Clerics will beat a balanced group. The world has been re-balanced so that a veteran soldier NPC can be level 15, and Sundren can use the Epic NWN2 content without needing a too-Epic plot. However, the item strength has not been so adjusted.

One step the other way from PnP is the existing crafting mechanics. Melee types have an advantage in resource gathering here. In PnP Wizards are the ultimate crafters bar none. For example, the best dwarven weaponsmith in Citadel Adbar is a wizard/expert multiclass NPC. This this isn't an issue as crafting in PnP is mainly something NPC's do. In NWN2 crafting is a "heroic" pastime (ie you usually have to have your adamantine weapon PC-crafted, not get it from a NPC). In Sundren in particular, melee types with STR/CON have an advantage in resource gathering. The fighter shortage is a major cause of the metal shortage.

One of the Cleric's big weaknesses in Sundren and PnP is the relative lack of skill points. Putting points in combat skills eg Concentration/Spellcraft will often involve some sacrifice of the classic stay-at-home priestly skills eg Diplomacy/Knowledge/Heal/Decipher Script/etc. Giving these skills more in-game play will help define a variety of cleric types, rather than the one-size-fits-all build that is mainly defined by it's RP.

The above being said, I don't mind the current situation. However, there is one thing that bothers me sometimes. You can't easily stop players wanting to self-buff rather than buff other PC's. However, it is often more LOGICAL to self-buff than to buff others. I try and focus the buffs on the frontline fighters. However, a buffed cleric can easily get better AB, saves and DR than a buffed fighter, plus is the only one who can raise the others without xp loss. With Extend spell the super-spells can be up for most of the tough battles, but I worry that they can steal the warrior's thunder. However, in a difficult situation I feel I have to buff my cleric to ensure a win for the home team, and there are many difficult situations out there. It just feels wrong to me.

My personal preference would be to tone down a few of the cleric super-spells but make them castable on other party members, if possible.

[Root]

The fighter shortage is a major cause of the metal shortage.

Dwarf Fighter/Frenzied Berserker.

2 Skill points a level.

Requires jump skills, wants intimidate, needs remaining point for whatever else.

Since mining is Wisdom based, I'd imagine the best people to get it would be the Druids and Clerics.

[Intrepid42]

Dwarf Fighter/Frenzied Berserker.

2 Skill points a level.

Requires jump skills, wants intimidate, needs remaining point for whatever else.

Since mining is Wisdom based, I'd imagine the best people to get it would be the Druids and Clerics.

Your point is a valid one.

At low/mid-levels, I agree. A cleric with max mining can mine anything from about level 15, but takes a LONG time to do so. Once you can get your skill level close enough to the DC, your output is purely defined by the fatigue cost, which depends on base STR/CON without buffs.

A high level fighter with cleric/bard support can produce ore much faster than a supported cleric. And when it can take over 30 days for Glyir to recover from a single mining expedition, gathering a party is the far lesser hassle.

I amend my statement to say that a fighter currently has a resource gathering advantage in Sundren, but only at high levels. Which is different from standard NWN2, where wizards are superior crafters at all levels.

[BedlamX]

OK...my take on this subject for what it's worth...

Casters are much more powerful at higher levels than non-casters. From a raw power standpoint, this is kinda how it should be. Got no beef with that.

Problem gets to popping up when a non-caster's gear (his main "power" level) does not keep up with the caster's power. As it is now, getting a weapon enchanted with the better enchantments is almost impossible and/or costs a fortune. A caster can buff his weapons to +5 and add some sort of extra damage (don't think clerics can do that part any more since Darkfire disappeared, though...may be wrong). Yes...it's temporary. No...the uber orc that you just cleaved in half with it doesn't care that it is temporary. Same goes for armor.

Ursus has REALLY GOOD armor plus as many AC feats and items as I could find. My lvl 8 cleric can beat his AC by 4 or more. Ursus has some great weapons. A decent level caster can get a normal weapon to beat his best weapon with buffs.

This is why casters are so numerous on this server and pure fighter types are so few and far between (and non-shadowdancer rogue builds just get shafted). The only way to get this straightened out is to introduce weapons and armor with better stats at a cost a fighter-type can actually afford (or get the crafting/enchanting to function a little more easily). These weapons/armors/gears could be flagged as Saulus mentioned the poisons would be: unusable by any caster classes (I'm assuming this is possible and would exclude multi-class fighter/casters). Then all you would have to worry about are those with uber UMD skill (mainly bards and rogues...and they would actually benefit from some good gear). Some stuff with Will save bonuses (and I'm talking better than +1 or 2) would make fighters more able to shrug off some of the instant "I win" spells.

Sorry for the long post. These are just my observations from playing a pure fighter (well...some Thayan Knight levels, too...but still a melee guy) to a high level. Which, by the way, would not have been remotely possible without the help of several casters.

[BattlePixie]

in my opinion there are two big abuses:

1- Create greater undead, the deathknight. That summons with its duration, can be buffed by a cleric or mage and can run mossdale up to the bosses with the caster tagging along invisible.

a possible solution? make summons disappear if invisible. Another possible solution is to make the duration in line with other summons.

2- The I win spells. Word of faith, bigby's, etc.

a possible solution? make spells always have a save and take away or reduce either the duration (to be 6 sec per level) or bonus of spell resistance. Maybe make spell durations no more than 1 min per level for all long duration spells. (I know this would be quite a bit of work, but its just a suggestion).

another suggestion: maybe make certain spells only usable by certain alignments or faithes, similar to the way darkbolt works.

[dieOrg]

A few thoughts:

This describes Calandra (Fighter 17/17) Perfectly:

"A 20th level fighter typically has an attack bonus around 30, if it has a +2 sword. The 20th level fighter's AC will be around 32, assuming a +2 Tower Shield, +1 dodge boots, +2 deflection ring, and the fighter dodge bonus feats, 38 if he's using Improved Expertise. Of course, now he's swinging at a 22, instead of a thirty. Assuming the fighter is using his not-quite-survivable AC of 38, his 22/17/12/7 attacks are going to struggle against everything. Assuming this build, his damage is going to average around 17-20. Assuming a damage build, Mr. Fighter is Mr. Squishy and doesn't live long enough to see the fruits of his labor.

If this fighter walks into the Mossdale, he/she doesn't walk out."

And loosing crits half the fighters potential again...She rarely dishes out more than 20Dmg described, and those Melee PC that does the 60-120Dmg are not pure fighters.

Infact, Calandra will be killed when soloing most areas from the Necropolis upwards. (I consider her to have average/above average gear).

When buffed in a strong party she really excells, but mostly I find her to be the "weak-link" when going off to adventure...Doing the least damage, contributing the least kills, and is the first to retreat to not be killed...

I find that I have to be really carefull with her not to get her killed when going off to adventure - including partying. (Now that I think about it, up to the low teen lvls she was doing quite well, but as soon as the higher lvls started I had to become more and more carefull)

I don't know what the aim is, but for partying and RP I have had no issues and really enjoyed the times I could play.

If the aim is to have the fighters to be the "butch, let's kill, open the way so I can stand first in line to fight and show how its done" type...Pure Fighter class is not that...

Just my observations

[caterpillar]

One of the ideas how to make fighters more useful is set larger indoor dungeons as "Rest not allowed in this Area", like in the game.

If the caster wants to get deep in the dungeon, and she knows, that she just can't in the half of the way sit down and rest, it would help her to include pure fighters as an element of the game. And rogue and an archer . But it would probably also require "dungeon tuning".

But I personaly do not believe in balanced NWN world. It is not possible.

[Thief Of Navarre]

The only way to make a fighter slightly better than the cleric or druid in the party is by having a specialist class/race combo.

For example to deal high melee damage a Sun elf swashbuckler with 20 int and 14 strength might be pretty high on the list but he is going to get ripped to shreds in light armour because he doesnt have a dex of 30.
To hold your own defensively you need to be a dwarf fighter/defender with both DR racials, improved expertise for when you cant safely use your stance and steadfast determination to bolster your will saves (which are normally pretty good cause of the defender levels). The problem with Mr Warf is that while he is being a tank he cant hit the broad side of a barn without caster assistance.

Back to Saulus' original idea ~ I think it would be really nice to have some different poisons to spice things up for melee warriors!

[Sir Kharn]

I like the poisons and stuff, particularly if theres one that has even a remote chance of a dispell on hit...Also a reduction in the cost of certain potions would be a plus such as bulls strength,bless,aid etc.
My opinion on fighters.....Closest thing i have is my monk Talen who some of you have adventured with. He uses 3 different potions which are easyly replaceable gold wise, barkskin (a much under used potion imo) bulls strength and bless. Often he refuses to be buffed. At lvl 11 he has no problem what so ever fighting against casters that are around the same lvl as he is, he can even beat a higher lvl fighter down with little trouble be it NPC or PC and he ISNT a caster.
Its all reliant on gold however. And that means grinding....alot

[Thief Of Navarre]

Ahh monks and their fabled spell resistance ~ gotta love it

[Waverider10]

While I think the melee classes have a tougher time and I agree with some of the issues stated already in this thread, I'll just add this extra.

While I've seen decent amount of good RP with magic types, I think the option of not getting granted spells from deity, entering anti magic areas, and "wild" magic times, and losing spell books isn't really practiced much. These things can cause big problems to casters in campaigns that I don't see much of in Sundren. These types of things, if added or practiced more often, could actually balance things out since a melees strength is relying on weapons, armor etc.

So, if a cleric could only pray for spells once every X hours otherwise it upsets his god or a magic users could only study is book once every X hours do to his ability to study and focus his mind in learning... things could be more interesting. Right now a day/night cycle is pretty long so if you limit a caster to lets say a set of spells 3 times per day/night cycle this would limit their ability to grind through an area solo, force them to use spells more wisely, and perhaps give more RP power to a melee type who isn't limited in this fashion.

[Fezzik]

Melee's have a cake walk up until they exit the Virdale (from every melee that I've made), then they start to die; with casters, it's the other way around; once they get out of the Virdale (~10th level for each) they start doing reasonably successful; they still need help (mostly wizards and bards, lets ignore the clerics for now) until 15+ or all the way to 20.

People play clerics and they don't bother helping and healing as much as they should. That seems to be my bottom line. A Cleric should, depending on their diety, be buffing the crap out of someone that has the potential to do a hell of a lot more damage than they can. Sure, protect yourself a bit, but if you can't protect some big huge fighter type, why should I bring my bushel of grain to you, instead of that nice cleric down the road that might have nearly gotten killed, but has a big burly friend who is still alive? So what you can make lighting come from the sky, as a peasant, I want to make sure you can protect ME not yourself.

[07paul87]

One thing that really irks me with casters is death ward. With death ward, a cleric immediately becomes immune to a rogue's crippling strike, and a swashbuckler's weakening/wounding strikes (there might be a pure swash out there...somewhere... )

I always thought it should be easier to "distract" someone trying to recite ancient words of power. I get that concentration is the representation of being able to stay focused while casting, but the DC caps at *24* for 9th level spells. If casters have a harder time getting off their spells when something is whacking their face, they'll probably find something strong to stand in front of them, preferably a PC melee'r.

I'd like to see the skill-based abilities beefed up a bit more (taunt, demoralize, distract, ect.). Remember Morte's ability Litany of Curses from Planescape: Torment? If the target failed its save, it became so enraged that it immediately charged and tried to bash Morte. While it would be OP to out it in this way against PCs, I think its a great implementation of saying just the right thing to piss someone off enough to throw them off. Maybe add a spell failure percentage that scales with taunt and intimidate (demoralize) ranks, and if the target fails the DC by 15 or more they become enrage/terrified for two rounds, losing control of their actions.

I'd also like to see a skill for grapple implemented, especially since there is a skill to escape grapple (escape artist). Grappling is a *great* way to ruin a caster's day, but it's really only viable for high-strength types.

More than likely, a fighter will need to get in a caster's face to finish him off. While he's running towards this caster, it's not unbelievable that he would chuck a rock, a clump of dirt, or a stick at the caster to throw off his casting. How about another combat feat that's free for all characters that forces a concentration check + AC based off of the attackers AB, and can only be used once every two minutes. It would be a free action, and if the caster fails the check, he wouldn't be able to cast for a full round. This should give fighters a chance to actually get close enough to hit before being vaporized.

Non-caster gear would also be nice. Gear that pumps will saves, provides immunity/greater resistance to common "I-Win" spells, and grants bonuses to breaking concentration would be *awesome.*

I'm in another state now, and have crappy hotel internet, so I've been playing Baldur's Gate on my down time. One thing I've noticed is that there are casting times. Certain spells take several rounds to complete. I don't know if it's possible to implement casting time, but it would go a long way to balance things out for fighters, especially since a melee fighter's greatest (supposedly) ability is to react immediately, while casters have to wave their arms and dance to get spells off.

Of course, anti-magic zones and non-restable areas would force casters to seek out fighters for protection, but I'm pretty sure increasing concentration DCs and implementing casting times would go a long way to forcing them to party and aid others. For PvP fairness, skill-based caster shut-downs will allow PCs to focus on being able to take out casters, but they have to invest the points. Skill-heavy characters have an advantage here over vanilla fighters, so the rogues out there won't feel left out.

That's all I've got for now.

[caterpillar]

One thing that ................... ........................ ..................... characters have an advantage here over vanilla fighters, so the rogues out there won't feel left out.

That's all I've got for now.

I would forget about things like PvP fairness in DaD. You can't tune every single class to be equal. I would prefer builders to focus on PvE, how to make locations, that there will be needed cooperation.