Am I exploiting?

[GRCrush]

Ok here is the real deal lay down on this mix match Paul is talking about. I think once I throw you the numbers you will see where this is how to make that uber halfling balde warrior. I myself have built it in the past

Lets start by taking the following class mix

3 Swashbuckler
5 Frenzied Beserker
12 Fighter

From this we get the following feats ( only listing ones that would apply to damage or are required for class advancement)

Weapon Finesse (from swash for free)
Insightful strike (Swashbuckler lvl 3)
Power attack (Required for Frenzied Beserker)
Improved Power attack
Weapon specialization (short sword)
Cleave (Required for Frenzied Beserker)
Great cleave (Required for Frenzied Beserker)
Frenzy ( From Frenzied Beserker lvl 1)
Enhanced power attack ( from Frenzied Beserker lvl 5)
Greater Weapon Specialization (short sword)

Now lets apply this to a halfling using a short sword two handed at level 20

Our Halflings Attributes are as follows

STR 13 ( minimum required for power attack)
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 20
WIS 10
CHA 10

( I purposely did not use a dump stat just to show that this can work well in even a balanced mix )

Now for the math

Short sword 1d6 damage
Greater weapon specialization +2 damage
Insightful strike +6 damage (1 from STR 5 from INT)
Enhanced power attack while using Improved power attack +20 damage
Frenzy +3 additional damage due to strength increase of +6

Added all together we get 1d6 (avg 3)+ 2 +6 +20 +3 = 34 damage on average

At level 20 your halfling will have a 23 ab at his highest while in IPA stance and hit for a consistant 32 damage minimum each hit he achieves. He has 5 attacks two at highest Ab while frenzied. This makes for a pretty decent hitter usually matching human beserkers and divine might clerics in damage applied

Where this build becomes noticably crazy is in epic levels when we take the combat insight feat and dbl his continually rising INT. By level 30 your hin will have a 24 INT (26 if we add a +2 INT item) which is equal to +8 damage now multiplied by 2 for +16 which is a number equal to a person with a 42 strength or basically doing the same damage as a RDD Frenzied Beserker Bard

At level 30 the damage jumps to averaging around 48 damage per hit (non crit) without applying magical damage aid and without going into frenzy

No need to worry about this on Sundren though as the Frenzied Beserker requires the second wind feat here and thus a minimum of a 15 con

[Twisted-Indoctrine]

a Shortsword is NOT a light weapon to a Halfling.

This. Just because halfling and gnomes are the only ones that can benefit from this feat synergy does not make it an exploit. It falls well within the realm of possibility that a fighter can use both grace and power in their attacks - hell there's entire martial arts devoted to doing that with a sword or staff.

Just because it leaves halflings unique in the world doesn't make it wrong.

From a more broad concern base I hardly see it as threatening of over all gamebalance.

[07paul87]

GRCrush--too much INT, not enough DEX

That's the basic idea for Sago, but I was planning on going weapon master, since I completely missed the requirements for FB when I first rolled him. WM made more RP sense for Sago anyways. He's way to into fancy clothes to become some crude savage.

At level 8, I was probably averaging out around 25 (not precise, just a rough estimate). Sago's precise build was swash 3/fighter3/duelist 2 as of the the creation of this thread--planning on going all out on duelist, then go WM.

[The Almight Red]

You know though, I was thinking about Phil's actually point and a Shortsword is NOT a light weapon to a Halfling. Equip it in your off-hand and watch what happens. So, his point still stands.

No, it doesn't. Because since a Shortsword is NOT a light weapon to a halfling, you shouldn't be able to even weapon finesse it.

But, as I said in my first post in this topic, I really don't give a crap. This is hardly a game breaking mechanism, here. I voted to just keep him as is. I mean, jeebus, compared to all the Cleric War-Machines, this is nothing.

[GRCrush]

Paul the interesting thing to find out with that mix is if the duelist precise strike feat adds 1d6 or 2d6 at lvl 10 to a short sword wielded two handed. I know it doesnt add to crits for the weapon but a constant edition of another 2d6 would make for a nice damage jump at a base level

Ohh and on a side note if yer rebuilding Sago it doesnt change anything I am still the Falcon hunting the Goat..So stop hiding from me :P

[07paul87]

Most definitely, I wouldn't have it any other way. *mutters* I already caught Owl once

[Root]

The fact that he's getting double Int results in gaining 2x his Int modifier as damage over the RDD FB who is gaining 1.5x with it.

That's 0.5x his int modifier as bonus damage. Even if he gets 26 Int, that's an overall improvement of +4 on the Str-build.

Add to this that:

His bonus damage is useless on crit-immune
His AC is denied when flat-footed
He's forced into light armour.
His AB comes entirely from his Dex

He's going to be having around 30 AB total, if he's using IPA. His AC will be nice (11 Halfling Base, +4 Dex, +4 Chainshirt, +8 Canny Defense, +4 from various items, total of 31), but will be denied if he's knockdowned (something he'll be especially vulnerable to, with no great ranks in either Dex or Str and being a halfling).

He'll still die to a bigbies, he's got poor saves, and is overall packing definite weaknesses.

The strength of this powerful build serves to make it comparable to other powerbuilds and powerful classes.

A melee class can knock him to the floor then destroy him whilst his AC is dead, a caster class can use any of their I-win spells. He might be good against sneaks if he invests in Spot (Duelist class skill, handy), but then anyone investing in detection is good against sneaks. Any divine caster can Ethereal and then just buff themselves to the eyeballs and be invincible, and a Druid can shift into something immune to critical hits, and hence, most of his damage.

His advantage is being strong, and not looking it. Not being ridiculously powerful.

[07paul87]

Actually, I can't use canny defense when wearing armor. Also, there is little reason for Sago to pick up IPA. I can't stomach -6 to hit unless I got +24 damage, which won't work since Sago only has 10 CON (null FB)

Additionally, picking up more than 18 INT would gimp his AB, which is silly since he has to hit you to be able to take advantage of the PA.

[GRCrush]

When this build was done by me on 07Paul87 and my previous stomping ground I did not use duelist and ended up with a quite enjoyable build

I used 5 swashbuckler 5 frenzied beserker 12 fighter and 8 bard

End stats with gear where 16 STR ( +2 item) 20 Dex (+2 item) 16 con (+3 item) 24 INT (+3 item) 10 WIS and 8 CHA (dump stat)

Using extra fighter feats to gain Steadfast determination as well as greater iron will and greater lightning reflexes combined with max spellcraft from Bard and maxed UMD gave very decent saves versus most effects with all saves pre spellcraft in the mid 20's

This route doesnt leave you as that stupid low will idiot most fighters end up as

Ac gained from using mithrel breastplate as the base armor with +3 ac bracers +3 boots +3 nat armor amulet and a +3 ring as well as +3 from tumble and +2 ac from Bard inspire defense leaving you with a 38 ac before adding scroll buffs for short duration boost in defensive situations a heavy shield could be added at +3 for 5 more ac

Ab using a +3 short sword comes in at 37Ab while using IPA due to epic weapon focus and combat prowess feats typical of most fighter classes

As a non caster the build is solid and Rooots spell argument is mute as Bigby ends almost all melee builds anyway

Due to the bard class the build has max listen so sneaks are usually less of an issue

Yes this is an exploit by mechanics But not an uber broken one and has some fun results. Like any build the end result of combat comes down to button mashing and dice rolls anyway. Atleast with this one you have some fun along the way without being part of the cookie cutter caster group

[Root]

My main problem with the above build (Duelist/FB/FIghter/Bard) is that ICly, it makes very, very little sense to combine Frenzied Berserker and Duelist.

A foam-mouther monster of flailing limbs and self-destructive fury dosen't really combine appropriately in terms of roleplay with the intelligent, calculating and controlled combat style of the Duelist.

[GRCrush]

I agree Root such a build has no real IC basis.

The purpose of the build like any power build was simply to show what can be done with certain mixes feats classes etc. Proving one can come up with a character that can stand up well enough in PvP. After all isnt PvP the only reason really to make a power build

Also edit my previous post that was 5 swashbuckler not 5 duelist in that build

[07paul87]

Shut up, peasants! (I just saw I'm now "nobility," probably for a lot of low content posts, like this one)

[GRCrush]

Shut up, peasants! (I just saw I'm now "nobility," probably for a lot of low content posts, like this one)

Sweet you are a noble.. Contracts on nobles pay more. Count me in

[Urithrand]

Rebuilds are never given for this type of circumstance.

Personally I despise powerbuilds in all their forms and would say for sure "yes" this is exploiting, but I'm a bit late to the party, so it's probably all sorted now anyway.