Am I exploiting?

[07paul87]

Hiya people of Sundren! I think I may have been exploiting (unintentionally, I promise!) with Sago Trumperstomper. I asked a DM, and he/she/transgender-ball-of-energy wasn't sure, so I put it to you guys:

Is using weapon finesse with power attack taking advantage of a bug?

Sago's a halfling swash/fighter/duelist, and uses shortswords almost exclusively. Why? Because as a small creature, he can two-hand it. It's also considered a light weapon for the purposes of adding his dex modifier to it, and swash insightful strike.

I was OOCly chatting with a player when he complimented me on Sago's general badassery (or something like that--I just assume all tells to me are compliments ). I proceeded to tell him the build, and he raised the valid question of "is that an exploit?" I'm not sure, and I think that both "You're an exploiter!" and "naww, it's cool" parties have a valid point.

As I see it, power attacking with a finesse weapon is like thrusting really hard, or risking a bit more to land a hit in a squishy spot. I can also understand people disagreeing with it.

So, what do you people say?

[07paul87]

Also, I have no qualms with deleting or rebuilding Sago if it's decided that I'm exploiting.

[Fezzik]

... I didn't think it was possible. I'd put it this way, do you think an that an Olympic fencer could possibly slam a rapier or saber into someone with the same effect an Olympic weightlifter or hammer tosser could smash someone with their weapon?

Sure, I'd hate to be poked 20 times with the small pointy weapon, but I'd also hate to be smacked with a sword wielded by the weightlifter. To be able to pick up a weapon and do both, is just a bit goofy if you ask me

[Root]

IMO, no.

The RP for Power Attack is that you're swinging a heavier blow than usual to do more damage.

The RP for Weapon Finess means that you use a small, light weapon to attack more with quickness than Strength. However, this isn't effected by crit-immunity, which means it's more to do with finding cracks in armour and using your speed to make it harder to dodge than striking critical locations.

Hence, using both together is using your speed to line up a hit, but putting some welly into it when you actually strike, which sometimes causes you to miss the precise hit.

It's a clever idea for a build, but isn't going to give you any massive overpowering advantage over a similar clever-build Fighter. Is it munchkinny? Yes. Is that illegal? Nah. Does a halfling fighter have many other options? Nah. Are halfling fighters awesome? Yes.

[Cornuto]

I'd say you're fine.

[07paul87]

For the record I voted no for myself so I could see the results. I'll be sure to deduct my vote so I can get the final tally.

Also, please vote people. I want to have this thing settled in a couple of days, and it would make it much easier if I have two clear bars showing the results.

EDIT: And if the omnipotent ones step in with a formal decree, that's an instant decision. Is that a staff position, or just yours, Cornuto?

[GodBeastX]

I think it's a bug in size. Weapons that are finesseable for a human are not power attack-able for human. It's based on weapon size.

I think that when race size comes into it, there's probably a bug in either finesse or power attack to allow you to do both to the same weapon.

[BedlamX]

Hhmmm...was gonna say it's OK.

Until I read GBX's post. If it's not usable by all races, I see it as exploiting a bug in the system. But, in my personal opinion, a small size creature being able to use a small size weapon with weapon finesse is already bug-worthy. Other than the rapier, are there any other medium size weapons a medium size creature can use with finesse? If not, I would see it as an engine bug for small ones to use small weapons with it. Nothing can be done about it, but it still seems buggy to me. I didn't even know WF worked on short swords for little guys. Been using daggers with my gnome to take advantage of his DEX (even gave up a couple decent short swords cuz I didn't look to see if it worked).

Sorry...went off on a tangent there :P

[The Almight Red]

I'm of the opinion that exploiting usually comes down to motive. That being, did they know it was a bug to be exploited, and did they willingly then use it for an advantage above and beyond the intended use?

Frankly, from what you've said (and this very post), I don't think that was exactly the case. Now that you know about it (and many of us in the Sundren community), we shouldn't be found doing it in the future.

But on Sago? You haven't really struck me as someone even remotely actually looking to exploit, and it's also not something gamebreaking in this circumstance. I think you're entirely fine as is, bud.

[Intrepid42]

I'm surprised it hasn't been generally known until now. You're probably just the first to publicise the bug, at least here. Now that it's known, others will try it out. If it's hard-coded, a code-based fix could be problematic.

However, I have never thought of halflings or DEX-based fighters as particularly OP. My opinion is that you should be fine for now, unless staff suddenly notice a rash of new swords-hin. If it was a bug favoring clerics or wizards, my opinion would be different.

If it's the same for gnomes, we might start seeing a few more of them...

[07paul87]

It is the same for gnomes. All small races can use light weapons with finesse, and if it's a small-classed weapon, it can be two-handed for power attacks. It works with handaxes, maces, and...light hammers? Not too sure about the hammers, I think it's a small weapon.

[Cornuto]

I think it's a bug in size. Weapons that are finesseable for a human are not power attack-able for human. It's based on weapon size.

I think that when race size comes into it, there's probably a bug in either finesse or power attack to allow you to do both to the same weapon.

I'm pretty sure Humans can power attack and finesse at the same time. Is there some rule that says they shouldn't be able to?

Here's a 1st level throw-away human fighter I made with the power attack & finesse.






EDIT: NvM didn't even notice the Damage bonus doesn't apply to the Short Sword. Perhaps further testing.

[Intrepid42]

Wow. Fast work. According to your Screenshots, Cornuto, the human gets the AB penalty with both weapons when using PA.

However, on the character sheet he gets the +6 damage bonus with a LS, but not with a Short sword. On the character sheet, at least.

EDIT: Cornuto spotted this and posted his edit before I posted.

[07paul87]

EDIT: Whoops, missed the no-damage thing too

[07paul87]

Hmm...I wonder if it would work with a rapier, since it's medium weapon for humans. I'll test it and post the results.