Knockdown?

[GodBeastX]

Knockdown is stupid.

At least in NWN1 it worked on AC, sure some people didn't have disc, but they could do things like imp invis and such to evade it, it always hits in NWN2.

If I watch PVP that is just a series of Knockdown spams I'll probably deduct XP.

"But godbeast! That isn't fair!"

Neither is getting a feat at level 1 that can't be stopped in any way. Going to look into putting a cooldown timer on Knockdown like other abilities have.

[InquisitorFury]

I do not know if this has been said, but...

Knockdown is broken. You cannot miss with Knockdown like you should, you can only resist it. If people have imp knockdown it can be spammed over and over at +4. Using this every few rounds sounds fair... but not repeated spamming.

It is a broken feat (it has been forever, and they stated this on Obsidian forums). Spamming it repeatedly is not a good idea. They intend to fix this feat in 1.06 or 1.07.

[Cheatcake]

Going to look into putting a cooldown timer on Knockdown like other abilities have.

Oh yeah, I saw that done It has a 6 seconds cool down, so you could only use it once per round. But it didn't fix that much since more often than not knockdowns hit, except for certain Dex or Str based builds. It's was a start, tho

[Ithildur]

Knockdown is stupid.

At least in NWN1 it worked on AC, sure some people didn't have disc, but they could do things like imp invis and such to evade it, it always hits in NWN2.

If I watch PVP that is just a series of Knockdown spams I'll probably deduct XP.

"But godbeast! That isn't fair!"

Neither is getting a feat at level 1 that can't be stopped in any way. Going to look into putting a cooldown timer on Knockdown like other abilities have.

I suppose if you can and are willing to script a reasonable timer, that is a viable solution that might help... The thing is, honestly I have never played with a PC that's str was higher than 18 or 20 (and likely never will, the idea itself of a godlike strength in a medium sized standard race PC sounds stupid to me) so it's hard to understand from experience how it's so unstoppable. I roll a d20, add +4 from str, a modest amount certainly for a melee PC, the other PC rolls a d20, add +3 to +7 or more for melee types; seems like it's 50/50 at best, doing KD every two or three attacks doesn't seem overdone.

If a low str PC allows a fighter to get up close, the fight should be favored towards the fighter unless the low str PC is much higher lvl or has uber buffs on. Letting the fighter get in close in itself is a critical tactical factor that should not punish the fighter.

I usually play caster PCs (Corwin actually is a gish); I expect that melee types will give me problems if I don't disable/instakill them fast and they close, and at low lvls, I expect to die.

Again, I don't understand why anyone would spam it either; it does no damage and as soon as it's resisted once, you have a totally unharmed enemy getting up with a potential death spell ready to zap you.

[GodBeastX]

Oh yeah, I saw that done It has a 6 seconds cool down, so you could only use it once per round. But it didn't fix that much since more often than not knockdowns hit, except for certain Dex or Str based builds. It's was a start, tho

I was thinking more 18+ seconds.

[GodBeastX]

I suppose if you can and are willing to script a reasonable timer, that is a viable solution that might help... The thing is, honestly I have never played with a PC that's str was higher than 18 or 20 (and likely never will, the idea itself of a godlike strength in a medium sized standard race PC sounds stupid to me) so it's hard to understand from experience how it's so unstoppable. I roll a d20, add +4 from str, a modest amount certainly for a melee PC, the other PC rolls a d20, add +3 to +7 or more for melee types; seems like it's 50/50 at best, doing KD every two or three attacks doesn't seem overdone.

If a low str PC allows a fighter to get up close, the fight should be favored towards the fighter unless the low str PC is much higher lvl or has uber buffs on. Letting the fighter get in close in itself is a critical tactical factor that should not punish the fighter.

I usually play caster PCs (Corwin actually is a gish); I expect that melee types will give me problems if I don't disable/instakill them fast and they close, and at low lvls, I expect to die.

Okay, you are thinking just plain knockdown. Think Imp Knockdown. Then think about a caster who took 10/10 with your 18 STR, then think of the people who drink potions or buff before battle. You could easily have like, +9 to your knockdown roll, very easily. That 50/50 is now 95/5. And you can spam it multiple times a round if you happen to miss. O_O

[Jhiroth]

Cool with me!

You could easily have like, +9 to your knockdown roll, very easily. That 50/50 is now 95/5. And you can spam it multiple times a round if you happen to miss. O_O

Well when you fix this, I do hope the other unbalanced abilities get fixed as well. Harm touch, and few others come to mind.

[Cheatcake]

The utopical solution would be to make it unnarmed only and let the person stand up right away, just taking attacks of opportunity for that :/ Damn the hardcoding.

[thorandike]

Well when you fix this, I do hope the other unbalanced abilities get fixed as well. Harm touch, and few others come to mind.

Oh boy, here we go...

Here's a thought - if the ability is only bothering people with PvP, can't we all just agree not be be a jerk about spamming the broken spells/abilties without having to go to the trouble of trying to "fix" each one? This is just going to start a huge debate about what other abilities need "fixed".

[Ithildur]

Once every 2 rounds might not be a bad idea, the caster gets a round of no KD attempts to get a spell off (still possible to get disrupted if the meleer is in his face).

I tend to play gish types, so I generally see both sides of the equation, casters and meleers... it's just that to me, a moderately high lvl caster that knows what they're doing can wipe the floor with straight high str fighter types rather easily in a one on one situation... unless the caster gets caught with his pants down and the fighter gets in his face without being disabled/dead... if that happens to me as a caster, I expect that I'll get pummeled badly.... with no contingency spells in NWN2 (argghhh... !!)

At early levels, wizards and unbuffed clerics should expect to get pummeled in melee range by fighters unless they get extremely lucky... at higher lvls, wizards/clerics can laugh at the muscleheads if they're prepared. Again, gishes get caught in the middle, so I try to see both sides.

The big huge brokenness to me is concealment not working vs KD. Can that be fixed I wonder?

[GodBeastX]

Oh boy, here we go...

Here's a thought - if the ability is only bothering people with PvP, can't we all just agree not be be a jerk about spamming the broken spells/abilties without having to go to the trouble of trying to "fix" each one? This is just going to start a huge debate about what other abilities need "fixed".

I could, can Tommy Twotones? Some people like to go "I didn't know!" after they do things because alot of people aren't reading the forums regularly.

[Cheatcake]

The big huge brokenness to me is concealment not working vs KD. Can that be fixed I wonder?

I'm not sure, but my guess would be no :/ I think concealment is only checked when you do the attack and that part is hardcoded. You could include something like a check for concealment to the feat, just like adding the cooldown, but I don't know if you could "force" the miss chance from there.

I still think the major "brokeness" of Knockdown is that you can do it with a weapon instead of unnarmed like trip, tho.

[Ithildur]

I'm not sure, but my guess would be no :/ I think concealment is only checked when you do the attack and that part is hardcoded. You could include something like a check for concealment to the feat, just like adding the cooldown, but I don't know if you could "force" the miss chance from there.

Well, jeez... if IKD with cheese builds are as bad as some people are saying, then I'd say go ahead and disable it vs 50% concealment, though the 10% concealment from ghostly visage is very iffy to disallow it entirely. Most of my experience with KD here has been vs the not so uber gnolls... they resist it more than half the time it seems so I usually don't bother unless I'm RPing that my PC is toying with the gnoll and tripping it, taunting it, etc.

Again, I've never tried making a high STR uber RDD/berzerker/whatever, never even played epic levels, so it's hard for me to fathom how bad this is... lol I was knocking down a svirf for crying out loud!

[Mikara]

The big huge brokenness to me is concealment not working vs KD. Can that be fixed I wonder?

From what I can see, there should be a to hit roll for Knockdown. Much of Jandi's AC is supposed to be from dodging ability, so why can Knockdown automatically hit her when a weapon cant? Its humorous to see the bandits who can only hit her normally on a 20 do knockdown and hit her every time.

If knockdown had a touch attack roll (like Harm is supposed to when it is fixed) that would include concealment and make both abilities balanced.

[Ithildur]

From what I can see, there should be a to hit roll for Knockdown. Much of Jandi's AC is supposed to be from dodging ability, so why can Knockdown automatically hit her when a weapon cant? Its humorous to see the bandits who can only hit her normally on a 20 do knockdown and hit her every time.

If knockdown had a touch attack roll (like Harm is supposed to when it is fixed) that would include concealment and make both abilities balanced.

Simply put, I think they were trying to give fighters a powerful weapon vs casters in NWN PvP. The combat is quite different on many areas from PnP... bullrush, grapple, trip, sunder, sap (which was originally planed for NWN1 but removed), intimidate, are all not available in NWN that would be tactical options in PnP.

In PnP, a strong PC can grapple an unprepared caster and it's pretty damn effective as well, if you think about it. And grapple (and it's Improved version) can actually do damage, which KD can't.