Knockdown?

[Ithildur]

Are you sure the opposed rolls are right? I've seen people consistently knocking down things way over their strength. Too consistently for it to be just luck, or so I thought

But even if they got one of the rolls right, they still lack the other one and the restriction on being unnarmed to do it



The description? Like the one for the long-range feats that seem to be wrong Or the spells that say they do something but do something else?

*shrugs* if you don't want to read Obsidian's description that's your perogative, just try and not go ZOMGTHEHORRORITSOFFOFATTACKROLL when people generally seem to know otherwise and post it for you to see.

[Anauroch]

If it's bad enough that a PW decides to balance it out, that's fine, if they also balance out all the other unbalanced abilities and attacks. If Sundren staff want to start opening that can of worms, well... god help them.

Which brings us back to what Rannarix said in the beginning.

You are certainly right, Ithildur, that there's much more than knockdown that would need fixing.

[thorandike]

/off topic
Hey, how come Rangers don't get some kind of unbalanced cool ability?! Poor unrepresented Rangers...

[Cheatcake]

there's much more than knockdown that would need fixing.

That's for sure. But it shouldn't stop the nice community from understanding the issue and refraining from doing stuff like spamming Knockdowns, should it?

[Pulseczar]

/off topic
Hey, how come Rangers don't get some kind of unbalanced cool ability?! Poor unrepresented Rangers...

Rangers get HiPS at 17.

[Ralek]

/off topic
Hey, how come Rangers don't get some kind of unbalanced cool ability?! Poor unrepresented Rangers...

Because they're just cool.

No, really, rangers have been severely pimped in DnD 3.5. HIPS, faster tracking, faster sneaking, faster movement, improved combat styles etc etc. Rangers are waaay more powerful than in nwn1.

And, they're just cool.

[Ithildur]

What I don't understand is people don't seem to even want to bother finding out what the counters to all these things are before complaining; to the OP's credit, he did ask if there are countermeasures. And yes there are, several options, aside from total immunity items which tend to be questionable.

[Jhiroth]

Knockdown.

This skill and Improved KD are overpowered. That's all that can really be said. I talked with Saulus about this a while back and to my knowledge, there aren't any plans to change it.

Of course, when I throw up a 35+ str char who is enlarged and uses improved kd, I think anyone is pretty screwed. Unless your char chose the same stuff and improved initiative, in which case you KD me before I KD you

[Jhiroth]

What I don't understand is people don't seem to even want to bother finding out what the counters to all these things are before complaining; to the OP's credit, he did ask if there are countermeasures. And yes there are, several options, aside from total immunity items which tend to be questionable.

What counters can you use to beat Improved KD? You buff with a +str and +size spells? How does that overcome me (the KD'er) doing the same thing.

Let's not pretend KD is balanced in any way. Its a generally accepted fact in the NWN2 community that this skill is flat bogus. Many PW's are banning it altogether.

[Ithildur]

That's for sure. But it shouldn't stop the nice community from understanding the issue and refraining from doing stuff like spamming Knockdowns, should it?

Sure, no problem with that at all. Spamming knockdowns, as explained earlier, is totally pointless anyway and actually ineffective.

Now if you're suggesting coming up with a rule or guide that says 'you can only KD two times in a given encouter' or some such, that's up to the staff, but it seems like then you'd have to have rules for 'don't use bigsby's when you PvP' 'Don't cast Harm when you PvP' 'Don't use HIPS more than twice in an encounter when you PvP' etc etc etc etc

hmm... I think we all have better things to do/fix atm. Me? I'm just going to suck it up and try to take it like an adult if someone does those things to me. But that's just me.

[Cheatcake]

Now if you're suggesting coming up with a rule or guide that says 'you can only KD two times in a given encouter' or some such, that's up to the staff, but it seems like then you'd have to have rules for 'don't use bigsby's when you PvP' 'Don't cast Harm when you PvP' 'Don't use HIPS more than twice in an encounter when you PvP' etc etc etc etc

No, I'm just appealing to people's good will, sense of fairness and lack of "gotta be teh uber winnerz" thoughts If that doesn't works, we see what can be done.

[thorandike]

Okay, so to review... so far we have agreed that it is overpowered and the counterbalance is lacking. I don't hear anyone really making a big fuss about it or demanding that it be removed from the server. So... We'll just all continue playing and having fun, okay?

[Anauroch]

We'll just all continue playing and having fun, okay?

Wait... what?! Try to be less.... agreeable, okay?




Yeah, that's what's going to happen I'd guess.

[Ithildur]

What counters can you use to beat Improved KD? You buff with a +str and +size spells? How does that overcome me (the KD'er) doing the same thing.

Let's not pretend KD is balanced in any way. Its a generally accepted fact in the NWN2 community that this skill is flat bogus. Many PW's are banning it altogether.

Two separte issues there: one, countering KD, two, whether it's balanced or not in the first place. Related, but separate issues. Unbalanced attacks can be countered as can balanced attacks.

Size spells do not add a size bonus to KD in NWN2; I'm 99% sure Enlargement is broken that way so unless you're playing an ogre as a PC, it's not going to help you. The other shapechange spells take away abilities like KD so that doesn't work either. Buffing strength, what, the huge +2 bonus with bulls str? anyone can drink a bulls str potion to counter that, or if their dex is higher, drink cats to negate that. Rage, ok, that's substantial, but hmm... how many fun ways are there to take out a barbarian? Frenzied Berzerker I don't know much about but from what I hear, now THERE's an unbalanced element of the game, along with RDD.

If a PC is high enough lvl they are RDDs/Frenzied Berzerkers (which the problem isn't just KD then is it? It's people making cheesy RDD str builds) or have uber strength, then a low level PC that's foolish enough to try to go toe to toe with them is... dead. they'd be dead without KD anyway in that situation.

If you're talking about PCs of comparable lvls going at it, there are lots of options, if you don't stay stuck in the mindset of 'I'm going to stand up to that STR34 raging half orc and damn it, I'm not going to get knocked down' approach.

Just for the record, my PC has a str bonus of +4 with gauntlets of ogre power on; I don't think too many melee PCs his level would quake in fear, they'd laugh at him probably if he 'spammed KD' against them.

[Pulseczar]

Sure, no problem with that at all. Spamming knockdowns, as explained earlier, is totally pointless anyway and actually ineffective.

I find it incredibly effective. It's a battle stopper, kinda like Disarm (whole new can of worms). Use a KD and back up a bit. Battle is stopped, and you can see if your opponent charges you again. KD could also be used to settle duels.

"Ok, i try and knock you down, then you try and knock me down. Best of 5 wins"

PvP isn't always about killing someone. Sometimes it's about settling a dispute.